Final bevel angle on low-angle block plane

[woden]

I was wondering what angle most people would settle on for the final polish on the blades of their low angle block planes: this would be the second or even third bevel.

I've been experimenting with my old stanley version by grinding the stock blade at just under 20 degrees, then honing it at just over 20 and finally polishing the secondary bevel at 23 degrees. This gave me a cutting angle of just 35 degrees when the bed angle is added in but it has proved to be too brittle - chipped badly on yellow pine end grain! Won't be trying the oak with it then. :shock:

 

[Paul Chapman]

I normally do mine at 30 degrees and then alter the roller on the Veritas Mk2 honing guide to give a 32 degree micro bevel.

It all depends on what you are planing. I keep an old Stanley #60 1/2 for use on stuff like Formica and perspex. For this I use a very steep angle (don't know what the angle is but the blade is projecting less than one inch in an Eclipse honing guide). This stops the edge breaking up on what is a very hard and abrasive material.

However, for most woods I would use 30 degrees or so but it's best to experiment and see what works best.

Cheers :ho2

Paul

 

[Racers]

Hi,

I use a 30 degree bevel no secondary bevel, seems to work fine.

Pete

 

[dunbarhamlin]

These sound like high angles to me - an EP just a degree or three below common pitch.
Stanley blades are cheese - perhaps you have parmesan rather than the usual edam. (OTOH, perhaps I've just been lucky)
My LN seems happy enough with ~25° and no secondary bevel, a Stanley with a Ray Iles proper-steel blade was coping with 20° last time I saw it (he always uses a guide, so that angle's definite - and that one gets abused.)

 

[woodbloke]

Veritas advise that the new DX and NX60 blades (A2) be honed at 27deg for softish timber and 30deg for stuff that's a bit tougher, which gives an EP of 39deg and 42deg respectively. I hone the micro-bevel at 30deg and that seems to work for most timbers - Rob

 

[woden]

Ah, so a final angle of 23 degrees appears to be way off the mark. I'd come up with this polished bevel angle after reading an article by Lonnie Bird in which he suggested an angle of 35 degrees could sometimes be used in a LABP.

So I assumed this was a combination of the 12 degree bed and the very final bevel on the iron that intersects with the wood: which would have to be 23 degrees for this to all add up. I'm now thinking - from what you've all said - that Lonnie was referring to the bed and grind angles adding up to 35 degrees; a steeper final cutting angle would be produced by honing and polishing.

Having said all this, I do wonder about the fact that with a secondary bevel of 30 degrees the final cutting angle of 42 degrees isn't a whole lot less than the 45 on your standard bench plane; we're always told that bench planes are not designed for coping with end-grain, aren't we?

Oh, forgive my ignorance, but what does EP stand for: entrance plane or point or something?

Veritas advise that the new DX and NX60 blades (A2) be honed at 27deg for softish timber and 30deg for stuff that's a bit tougher, which gives an EP of 39deg and 42deg respectively.

What honing angles do Veritas suggest for regular block and bevel-up planes; being too lazy to look it up for myself I suppose it's whatever takes you to 45 degrees or 50 and more for a York pitch.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Having said all this, I do wonder about the fact that with a secondary bevel of 30 degrees the final cutting angle of 42 degrees isn't a whole lot less than the 45 on your standard bench plane; we're always told that bench planes are not designed for coping with end-grain, aren't we?

Oh, forgive my ignorance, but what does EP stand for: entrance plane or point or something?

I frequently use a bench plane on end grain - often more effective than a block plane because of the extra weight

EP = effective pitch.

Cheers :ho2

Paul

 

[woden]

Ah, but you're a Clifton man (he typed with feral, drooling jealousy). I supose it really just comes down to the steel in your iron if you're looking for a very low cutting angle: I imagine only the new fangled steels like A2 could cope with a final bevel of just 25 degrees or less.

Paul, while your Clifton looks lovely, I'm just concerned about the placement of the makers stamp on the iron. It's somewhat off to one side and also touching the slot. I know it's purely cosmetic but then don't you pay a few pounds for that with the leading brands. Oh, and ta for the dictionary bit. I just hope the aspersions cast (oh dear, what a pun) on the honour of your prize plane won't provoke a challenge to duel. Plane off at noon tomorrow in Hyde Park and all that.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

One of my Clifton iron stamps is similarly off centre - all part of having a hand forged iron. (IIRC Matthew of WorkShopHeaven has a description of the process on his site - sounds positively Dickensian)

To take it to the extreme, my fave tool for hogging off end grain is a 40 1/2. Works a treat.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul, while your Clifton looks lovely, I'm just concerned about the placement of the makers stamp on the iron. It's somewhat off to one side and also touching the slot. I know it's purely cosmetic but then don't you pay a few pounds for that with the leading brands.

That wasn't the blade that came with the plane - I have spare blades for most of my planes and that was the spare that I bought from Classic Hand Tools when I was down at Yandles. The off-centre stamp doesn't bother me - looks rather quaint, I feel

The question of which plane to use for end-grain is interesting. I happily use anything from a block plane up to a #7 depending on the job in hand. End grain can be very demanding, particularly in very hard woods, and the weight of a larger plane can be very helpful. Just have a very tight mouth, a razor sharp blade and take very fine shavings - and if you're doing it free-hand as I was in that picture I posted, take slow, deliberate cuts and it's like a hot knife through butter 8)

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[whybob71]

On my block planes I have different bevel angles.

The LV has a final angle of 30° (25° + 5°); is the plane I use often
The LN 102 has a 30°+2° angle
The stanley 60 1/2 has an Hock A2 blade with a 25° bevel angle and a back bevel of 5° (for an effective cutting angle of 37°)

 

[MIGNAL]

I recently ground a spare blade at 45 degrees, to give an effective cutting angle of around 57 degrees on my 60 1/2.
Don't know about end grain but it sure worked on some difficult Bubinga.

 

[Vann]

I supose it really just comes down to the steel in your iron if you're looking for a very low cutting angle: I imagine only the new fangled steels like A2 could cope with a final bevel of just 25 degrees or less.
(

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought it was the O1 steels that are more tolerant of low cutting angles. I am under the impression that an A2 cutting edge will breakout easily at angles below 30 degrees, on hard or knotted grains.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers, Vann.

 

[MIGNAL]

I don't own a Clifton but that off-centre stamp is brilliant! That's hand made my friend and they should charge a premium for features like that.

 

[Hatherton_wood]

All the Clifton planes being demonstrated at Harrogate seemed to have off centre stamps. I know they are hand made but you would think they could aim a bit better!!

 

[Paul Chapman]

All the Clifton planes being demonstrated at Harrogate seemed to have off centre stamps. I know they are hand made but you would think they could aim a bit better!!

It's not something that's stamped on the blade after it is made, but cast into the blanks before they are machined to size and shape, so there's bound to be some variation in the position of the stamps from blade to blade. However, they perform superbly, which is what matters :wink:

Cheers :ho2

Paul

 

[bugbear]

I supose it really just comes down to the steel in your iron if you're looking for a very low cutting angle: I imagine only the new fangled steels like A2 could cope with a final bevel of just 25 degrees or less.
(

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought it was the O1 steels that are more tolerant of low cutting angles. I am under the impression that an A2 cutting edge will breakout easily at angles below 30 degrees, on hard or knotted grains.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers, Vann.

You are (to my knowledge) quite correct.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

It's not something that's stamped on the blade after it is made, but cast into the blanks before they are machined to size and shape

Well, forged, not cast, but the sequence is right.

BugBear (who wouldn't want a cast blade)

 

[Paul Chapman]

Well, forged, not cast

Thanks, BB - should have spotted that; it's written on the blade :lol:

Cheers :ho2

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Well, forged, not cast

Thanks, BB - should have spotted that; it's written on the blade :lol:

Cheers :ho2

Paul

Morning Paul - another senior moment?..it's not like I get them :^o :lol: - Rob