Fastest way to flatten chisesl I've found

[alan wood]

Hi Paul,
I completely disagree. I've expressed my views, highlighted a topic that I believe should have been covered. Its my opinion.

Just ideas to improve.

cheers
Alan

 

[pam niedermayer]

As it stands the dvd is not suitable and needs improving.

I don't know why you consider the dvd unsuitable for not covering fettling. For crying out loud, Alan, it's titled:

Hand Tool Techniques Part 1: Plane Sharpening

What part of that title don't you understand?

Pam

 

[tnimble]

You could easily fill two DVDs on tuning up bench planes,

Really? :lol:

Having tuned a lot of planes over the years, i would strongly disagree. Rocket science it isn't!!

Tuning planes to work well is boring and tedious due to the repetitive metal removal, but that is all that makes it hard, the principles could be demonstrated and covered in more than adequate depth in 1/2 hour.

We are taking absolutely basic engineering principles here

I you'd call flattening a plane sole as tuning up a plane 1/2 hour could explain the most of it including filing the mouth. But tuning up a plane is more than only that, to sum up a few thing;

Sole: measuing flatness, surfacing concave on a plate/glass, surfacing convex on a plate/glass, filing, scraping, polishing without hollowing / rounding over.

Sides: measuring squareness, why square ness is not that importent, stabalising the sides aka removing concavity

Frog: Blade contact, seating the frog on the bed, frog pitch and roll, blade track, Y lever

Mouth: Burrs, mouth shape and shavings, filing the front of the mouth

Chip breaker: blade contact, front angle and shavings, releave behind arch, side burrs

Lever cap: Front edge chipbreaker contact, frontedge angle, pivot point

Tote and knob: Bed contact, mounting rods / srews

 

[alan wood]

Pam I think you are getting bogged down on the title of the dvd.

I was disappointed the dvd did not cover the flattening of the plane sole for this reason.

Approximate quotes from the introduction.
Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane. (you seem to be getting fixed on the title of the dvd)


There are three absolutely fundamental things required for a plane.

blade sharpening
front edge of the chip breaker

and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane.
Discusses having to do a review on two planes, and they were 6th thou hollow in their length. etc etc and I proved that it is absolutely impossible to plane a straight edge.

So having discussed the importance of the three fundamentals, and having said in the introduction, quote ‘Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane.

I was therefore disappointed it was not covered. So forget the title of the dvd, go back to the introduction, listen to it again, see what David says.

There is no way that this dvd delivers what was said in the first three minutes

‘Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane’.

Maybe David would like to comment!

cheers

Alan

 

[pam niedermayer]

Pam I think you are getting bogged down on the title of the dvd.

I was disappointed the dvd did not cover the flattening of the plane sole for this reason....

Alan, I'm not bogged down in anything. I buy dvd's that cover the topics I need; and if it's not clear what's on the dvd, I call and ask before buying. I don't have this dvd, don't need it, hate metal bench planes, and instead make my own Japanese wooden planes.

You're disappointed? OK, send it back and get your money returned. You made a simple mistake.

Oh, yes, and the title of this message topic is Fastest way to flatten chisesl I've found, which should tend to guide the more sensitive of us. I never read the plane fettling topics, so it would be considerate of you and Tony to start another topic to address this issue.

Pam

 

[tnimble]

alan would that not be very depending on what the 'new plane' is? A new stanley versus LN, clifton, LV versus Anderson, Philly?

 

[alan wood]

Pam,
So you have not even see or listened to the dvd. How about borrowing a copy listen to what David says, then post an opinion based on fact and give an objective view.

I must say I did question why you made these comments and now I know. You've not seen the dvd.

How about David commenting.


cheers
Alan

 

[Harbo]

Sorry Alan - I have the DVD and have to agree with Pam.

It is titled "Part 1 Plane Sharpening"
and on the box it prints the chapter topics-

Keeping your waterstones flat
Preparing the back of the your blade
The ruler trick
Honing the bevel
Preparing a curved blade
Resharpening a curved blade
Fettling the chip breaker
Assembly of the blade etc
Outtakes

It says nothing about lapping plane soles on the contents!!

David does mention it briefly in his intro but only to state that it is important - he does not say he is going to cover it!

It would have been nice if David had included it, as well as other aspects of plane fettling to make it an even better buy?
But then the title would have been "Plane Sharpening and Fettling".
I think it's fair to ask David to bring out one on Fettling but a bit unfair to criticise him for something he has been quite open about?

As for Tony and "Rocket science" - well I agree, but as someone who has not had any proper training (apart from "O" level woodwork), I have had to rely on books, magazines, Forums, DVD's etc. to learn and improve my techniques. And I for one am very grateful for people like David who produce this sort of stuff.
When I started woodworking as a hobby over 40 years ago (and my father before me) you bought a Stanley and apart from sharpening the iron you thought that was it. With experience and reading the stuff above you realise it's not! The great thing about the available information today is knowing what can be achieved and where to get help in going about it. Don't knock the authors!!

Rod

 

[alan wood]

Hi guys,
with regards to tnimbles question

On the course I attended there were four students. Cannot recall the chaps name but he had a LN and that required work on the sole, but only a small amount compared with the rest of us with old Bailey planes.

I own two old Bailey planes and both of these required a major amount of work on the soles plus over the years still require an occasional bit of work on the sole to make it an efficient tool

I have two LN’s.
One required a small amount of work on the sole and has not required any since, whilst the other has never required any work on the sole.

I have recently purchased a Veritas and the plane worked straight out of the box. I also purchased a spare blade but unfortunately the back of the blade requires some amount of work to get it flat.

I would happily purchase another LN or Veritas plane because from my personal experience they will require the least work over the years to keep them in tip top condition.

Hi Rod,
Thanks for a pleasant reply. We obviously disagree. I totally agree the table of contents as per the back of the dvd.

In one of my previous posting in this thread I have quoted Davids introduction.

Do you think the product delivers what David said in his intoduction. I've forgotten the exact wording. But is certainly does not deliver what he says he is setting out to achieve.

I would not have had a problem if he has stated that 'the third and most important' or whatever the wording was, BUT I'm not covering that in the dvd.

I'm not spending time now looking at the rest of the dvd, but I would not be surprised if a beautiful shaving or two will be removed to show how all his work and made a plane work efficiently. But not unless the sole had been flattened.

I think this topic has been covered now.

cheers

Alan

Just missed the 'dont knock the author'.
Honest to goodness feedback about a L-N product, not an aurhor

 

[tnimble]

Alan you must than agree that with the Veritas and that second Lie Nielsen plane the DVD would have been everything you need to get the best of of the veritas and LN?

 

[Anonymous]

As for Tony and "Rocket science" - well I agree, but as someone who has not had any proper training (apart from "O" level woodwork), I have had to rely on books, magazines, Forums, DVD's etc. to learn and improve my techniques. And I for one am very grateful for people like David who produce this sort of stuff.

Don't knock the authors!!

Rod

I just want to point out that my point was aimed at the assertion that it requires several DVDs to show how to 'tune' a plane. I completely disagree with this statement.

As for knocking the authors? I have every DVD David Charlesworth has produced and all three of his books.
With the exception of the third book and the shooting board DVD, I have learnt something useful from all of them and each was well worth the money.

The same goes for Rob Cosman's DVDs and Chris Schwarz's

 

[bugbear]

his statement.

As for knocking the authors? I have every DVD David Charlesworth has produced and all three of his books.
With the exception of the third book and the shooting board DVD, I have learnt something useful from all of them and each was well worth the money.

Where you didn't learn anything, was it due to overlap with the other DC sources, you having prior knowledge from other (non DC) sources, or lack of actual content?

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

his statement.

As for knocking the authors? I have every DVD David Charlesworth has produced and all three of his books.
With the exception of the third book and the shooting board DVD, I have learnt something useful from all of them and each was well worth the money.

Where you didn't learn anything, was it due to overlap with the other DC sources, you having prior knowledge from other (non DC) sources, or lack of actual content?

BugBear

A good question BB

With the 3rd DC book, there was nothing I could see in it that was not already covered in the first 2. I would highly recommend 1 and 2.

With the shooting board DVD, if I am brutally honest, it is simply awful and has some pretty poor advice in it (such as making a shooting board that uses your bench top to run the plane on :shock: ). I was shocked when i saw it as I already owend 3 of David's DVDs which were very useful and from which I learnt a lot.


I had been using a shooting board for half a dozen years before seeing the DVD to be fair, but I still think it is a very poor effort.

 

[gidon]

Is DC's 3rd book a collection of articles from publications or is it written as a book?
By the way DC isn't the first person to suggest a simple shooting board using a bench hook and your bench. It's not that outrageous although personally I'd prefer to have a dedicated shooting board.
Cheers
Gidon

 

[alan wood]

tnimble wrote

Alan you must than agree that with the Veritas and that second Lie Nielsen plane the DVD would have been everything you need to get the best of of the veritas and LN

In reply. I think it’s a fair question to ask, have you watch the dvd?

In the introduction to the dvd we hear something like this

Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane.

So I am therefore expecting all matters to be dealt with that requires the purchaser of this LN product to deliver what was said in the introduction, and I really don’t think that is too much to expect really.

It is a excellent and very clear and precise statement of intent.

The introduction that goes on to explain the following. Not verbatim because I don’t think there is a need especially for people who own the dvd.

There are three absolutely fundamental things required for a plane.

1 blade sharpening
2 front edge of the chip breaker
3 and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane.

David then discusses having to do a review on two planes, and they were 6th thou hollow in their length. etc etc and that he proved that it is absolutely impossible to plane a straight edge.

From experience I have had to deal with the soles of my plane that are defective.

So it is a clear as a whistle to me what the introduction is saying.

We are talking about planes out there on the market that are defective in the soles or need ‘improving’ and I now going to deal with this critical issues that I have just mentioned.

And quite clearly it doesn’t.

This video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane.

So in answer to tnimble.

a If the sole of your plane does not require work to it ,you are lucky because the dvd does not cover it.


b If you are unfortunate enough to have bought one of the planes that David carried out a review on, that had 6th thou hollow in their length, then this dvd is not going to deal with it.

Some dvd’s that are sold over the internet allow you to have previews, and if you heard that introduction, I think it is reasonable to expect LN to cover the topics that they brought up otherwise what is the point of talking about it.

If a representative from LN does not wish to comment I don’t wish to spend any more time on this issue.

I believe that I have clarified my initial comment about being disappointed that the ‘sole’ topic was not covered as per the introduction to the dvd.

It certainly doesn’t

quote ‘help you to get the best out of your new plane’ if the sole is 6th thou hollow.

cheers

Alan.

 

[David C]

Fair cop guv.

I forgot to use some material to protect the bench top in the shooting board dvd, and had acquired thrush in my throat, in 95deg heat and 95% humidity, teaching large classes for 7 days straight, in Indiana.

However if you go to USA on tight schedule to do some work, not showing up is not an option.

I think the information in that DVD is as good as in others, it was designed to help beginners get good accurate results with shooting, and this it does. It was not aimed at highly experienced craftsmen. There is only so much to know about shooting........

best wishes,
David

 

[alan wood]

David Charlesworth said
Fair cop guv.

So the next question is;-

Do L-N have any plans to rectify the problem by recalling the product and replacing it with one that deals with quote

‘and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane’

cheers
Alan

 

[tnimble]

In reply. I think it’s a fair question to ask, have you watch the dvd?

Yes, and liked it very much. It has speed up sharpening quite a bit and improved sharpening skill some bit. I had already a fair amount of experience and training in sharpening and a lot in engineering but little in woodwork hand tool usage. The general consensus was to use a vast array of expensive power tools for every task. Hand planes and things like shooting boards where mentioned, but as something tedious, inaccurate, less functional and of the past. So yes I can say I like all the DVDs and have learnt from all of them.

...
So in answer to tnimble.

a If the sole of your plane does not require work to it ,you are lucky because the dvd does not cover it.

Agreed

b If you are unfortunate enough to have bought one of the planes that David carried out a review on, that had 6th thou hollow in their length, then this dvd is not going to deal with it.

Although the DVD does not cover how the correct the problem it does help you to identify that your plane has a fundamental problem. Backed with this knowledge you can either purchase a good quality plane or search for information about how to correct the problem.

 

[bugbear]

David Charlesworth said
Fair cop guv.

So the next question is;-

Do L-N have any plans to rectify the problem by recalling the product and replacing it with one that deals with quote

‘and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane’

cheers
Alan

I doubt it; but if you want to do that, I've got lots of information:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/flatten.html

Most woodworkers aren't keen on this much metalwork.

BugBear

 

[Philly]

Alan
I've been following this thread and don't quite understand what your problem is.
I have the DVD in question and popped it back in to refresh my memory. The DVD is quite clearly about plane sharpening. Your main gripe seems to be the first line that David says. As he is saying this the screen shows the following text.
" Portions filmed at an open house presentation at Lie-Nielsen Toolworks August 2003"
So obviously some of the dvd is taken from a much larger presentation.
Are you saying you feel short changed because of this first line, even though the DVD is clearly labelled as being about "Plane Sharpening"?
I also find it strange as you have stated that you have attended some of Mr C's courses (on the subject of tool tuning??) - so you have had one-on-one training on the kind of plane fettling you are complaining is missing in the above DVD.
Sounds to me like you have other reasons for your public moans - I suggest you take them up with Mr Charlesworth in a more appropriate way than a public forum.
Philly