Fashion and the Art of Hand Planing.

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I was smoothing drawer bottoms with a LN #4 1/2 today and thought of this thread.

My usual preference is a #3 sized plane, however the #4 1/2 was perfect for these wide panels. This #4 1/2 is the bronze Anniversary model that LN brought out several years ago as a one-off. It came with a 50 degree frog, which was still too low then to prevent tearout in my local woods. I added a 55 degree frog .. and hated the result. The cutting angle was still too low, and the plane was very hard to push, even with a waxed sole. And so it wound up on a shelf for years.

Very recently I managed to swap the 55 degree frog for a 45 degree one. A number of years had passed and I am now more proficient in setting up a chipbreaker.

The wood is quarter sawn Tasmanian Oak, which has similar properties to White Oak, although it is a Eucalyptus.

The wonderful feature of using a chipbreaker is that you no longer have to be concerned about grain direction. In a panel it is possible to orientate the boards for best match of grain and figure, and no longer be concerned that you are planing into- or against the grain.

The shavings are not gossamer but that are kept thin as I do not want to lose unnecessary thickness of the panel (9mm thick) ...

Those nice, straight shaving indicate that the chipbreaker is dialled in.

The panel has a nice polished look, and the joins are not visible (three boards and two joins) ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Careful, Derek - you'll be getting a reputation as the ultimate Plane Fashionista - anniversary editions, high-angle frogs, chipbreaker dialled in - you'll be using thin Stanley irons next!

As for shaving thicknesses - well, find some Ovangkol and plane it against the grain for a direct comparison. Or try David C's planes on Tasmanian White Oak.

Anyway - before this degenerates into yet another pointless internet spat about nothing very much, my point stands. I think David C did know how to set a capiron close to control tearout, and his F&C article demonstrates that. It was generous of him to acknowledge the work done to quantify the numbers involved. Calling him semi-competent on the basis of his acknowledgement is unfair and rather unseemly.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I think I missed something here, CC. Did anyone here denigrate David C? David is held in the highest regards by all, including myself. Most of us have learned from him through his magazine articles, books and videos. Indeed, it speaks highly of his character that David was honest enough to admit that he had not known about setting the chipbreaker until this was discussed on the forums. This was very supportive for those of us who also had not known of this technique. If David did not know, well ...

As for me becoming an "ultimate Plane Fashionista" ... well all I can say is "your warning is too late"! :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Well yes, you are missing something - earlier in the thread, somebody did have a bit of a go at David C, and not for the first time. Not you, though.

Derek - Just for the avoidance of doubt, I'm having a bit of a chuckle WITH you. I am most emphatically not laughing AT you. Or attacking you. You're perfectly entitled to whatever tools you choose, and you've used them on some interesting projects, some of them very technically challenging. You've also been prepared to spend the time to post tool reviews and WIPs on the web, and contribute to several forums. All that is a positive contribution to the craft.

My reason for the original post was to take a slightly wry look at the way things have developed in the field of hand planes, and the way that some tend to chase after each 'new' introduction. Unfortunately, some take these things rather more seriously than others (I really should have seen that coming), and for whatever reason, took it as an excuse to settle old scores, reopen old arguments, justify themselves or whatever. Look at the way David C was attacked by some for daring to suggest that he slightly preferred bedrocks over infills in his original F&C article. The Great Capiron Controversy is another (pertinent) example - when that broke, some were hailing it the greatest discovery since penicillin, and other were posting in a slightly bemused tone that they thought everybody had always known that. In the end, we all learned a bit.

I daresay in due course somebody will start agitating that such-and-such a setup has problems, and it can be overcome by using infills. Or bedrocks. Or low-angle bevel-up planes. Or whatever. The whole cycle will repeat.

I suppose it's a general reflection of life. Once you've found what works for you, stick with it, whatever the prevailing fashion. However, it does make things a bit confusing for the newcomer trying to get a start.

General comment, not aimed at anybody in particular - C'mon guys, lighten up a bit! It's woodworking, not life and death.

 

[bugbear]

A number of years had passed and I am now more proficient in setting up a chipbreaker.

I was absent for the great chip breaker discussion of 2012 (was it on Woodnet)?

I'm assuming the "old" concepts still apply; having the blade back laterally flat, and chipbreaker under surface laterally flat and sightly undercut still apply (per the top image here), so that shavings can't cram their way between the cap-iron and blade.

Polishing the upper curve of the chipbreaker is probably "old news" too.

So is the "new knowledge" no more (and no less) than the distance from blade edge to cap-iron edge?

BugBear

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi BB

Most of the discussions took place on WoodCentral, but also continued on WoodNet and SawmillCreek.

This was not about the mating of chipbreaker and blade, but about setting the chipbreaker close to the edge of the blade to prevent tearout. Discussion was stimulated by a video of the research in Japan of Professors Kato and Kawai.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Derek,

Took delivery of a CBN wheel Friday (180 grit, IIRC, regardless the grit you suggested). Simply great! I put a concave grind on a Marples beater chisel, nearly to the edge, without any uncomfortable heat to my finger tips!

Great suggestion for those that grind!

Thanks,

T.

 

[bugbear]

Hi BB

...but about setting the chipbreaker close to the edge of the blade to prevent tearout.

That's what I'd guessed. Thank you.

BugBear

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek,

Took delivery of a CBN wheel Friday (180 grit, IIRC, regardless the grit you suggested). Simply great! I put a concave grind on a Marples beater chisel, nearly to the edge, without any uncomfortable heat to my finger tips!

Great suggestion for those that grind!

Thanks,

T.

Tony, I am so pleased that you, too, found this a revelation.

Honing is so easy when there is the minimum steel to hone. Plus it levels the playing field somewhat, insofar as making it possible to use less-than-stellar honing media.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

If one hollow grinds at all it should be done frequently. If more than three or four passes are needed you've waited too long. Almost impossible to burn a cutter with even the cheapest or poorly cared for wheel in this scenario. The wheel, of course, never grinds all the way to the edge in the normal maintenance cycle.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

... The wheel, of course, never grinds all the way to the edge in the normal maintenance cycle.

That is usually so because wheels other than CBN or wet wheels will heat the blade's edge and affect the temper.

There is nothing wrong with grinding to the edge - as long as you do not grind away the edge.

A minimal edge to grind reduces the steel to hone, as I stated earlier.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

If the process is being done correctly one could hone first and then grind to just behind the honed edge and not do one scintilla of damage to the freshly honed edge. I think we essentially agree, though probably not about the cheap vs. expensive wheel stuff.

 

[MIGNAL]

That's basically how I sharpen plane blades. 100G on a hand crank (Ruby wheel) followed by an 8,000 waterstone. Less chance of overheating on a hand crank (of course it can still be done) and you can creep up to that glint on the edge.
I'll probably go to a diamond plate next, I'm fed up with that silly slurry stone.
Chisels get a different treatment but that's because they don't fit on my hand crank guide.

 

[D_W]

That is usually so because wheels other than CBN or wet wheels will heat the blade's edge and affect the temper.

Derek

I never had trouble heating the edge of anything with a brown al-ox wheel (which is mid grade here), but I also have a grader hanging in my grinder to keep the wheel fresh. You can always tell if an iron is hot by grinding it and dragging the flat side across your palm (where the skin is less sensitive and it won't burn if it's hot - key being to keep the iron moving). If the iron is too hot to drag across your palm, then it's being ground too hard.

BUT, the CBN wheels are so superb that I have no interest in going back to any wheels that shed grit, and you can do what I mentioned above faster. I still don't have water at my bench and I can square off an iron and grind a bevel on it (which is much more grinding than is ever subsequently done) and still drag the iron across my palm (or even just place it there) and have no issue with the CBN wheels. The abrasive absorbs and transfers so much of the grinding heat to the wheel that it's incredible.

Derek, I don't know if it was you who mentioned it first that I saw it, but if it was, I'm glad you did.

(there is one type of edge that I heated regularly on the brown wheel, and that is the muji planes - they're rubbery working on a grinding wheel and resistant to abrasion and the heat builds up, but they tolerate it just fine. And I don't use those much any longer).

I think the price of them will come down at some point, maybe not too much, though. When I bought mine from Ken Rizza, there was a short period where he was transitioning style sand selling stock for $125.

Maybe it's been a couple of years now? Not sure, but I've done a fair amount of preparation of old plane irons on my wheel and I've reground some chisels substantially and I don't notice any difference in its ability to cut other than an initial step down from ultra aggressive where the particles that were standing up too tall probably got blown off.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Dave, I can get close to the edge of the blade without burning it on a white wheels as well. However the CBN does this with less effort.

And, yes, I did give you the heads up on these wheels (on SMC).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

Dave, I can get close to the edge of the blade without burning it on a white wheels as well. However the CBN does this with less effort.

And, yes, I did give you the heads up on these wheels (on SMC).

Regards from Perth

Derek

There is probably some difference between what you're grinding and what I'm grinding as the carbon steel stuff grinds faster without as much heat (so the advantage between old and new is better for you than me). But even so for me, the CBN wheel grinds faster (I only have the 80 grit) than any loose grit wheel I've had - heat notwithstanding, the wheel itself is just incredibly fast. And no looking for the diamond grader or spitting abrasive around.

It's one of the few new things that's come along that really lives up to the hype 100% (or even surpasses it).

I would much rather have the cheapest grinder with a CBN wheel than the best grinder with a friable wheel.

 

[Carl P]

Just noticed this from Derek, I'd better ask before I forget!

Very recently I managed to swap the 55 degree frog for a 45 degree one. A number of years had passed and I am now more proficient in setting up a chipbreaker.

Does this mean that the cap iron is less effective at 55 degrees, or just that you prefer to use it at 45 degrees?

Thanks,

Carl

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Carl

A plane with a 55 degree blade is hard to push, especially when it is 2 3/8" wide. A plane with a 45 degree frog is significantly easier to push. Their is rarely any need to use the chipbreaker with the 55 degree plane. Even so, the angle is not high enough to prevent tearout in my hardwoods. The chipbreaker comes into its own with the 45 degree frog. So, easier to push and better tearout resistance, the 45 degree frog is the preferred plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Carl P]

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the clarification - I have some experiments in mind so I'm trying to clear my thoughts and get rid of irrelevancies,

Cheerio,

Carl