Cadmium plating

[Scrit]

Here's one for you chemistry wizards. My understanding is that during and after WWII Record plated some of their planes with cadmium rather than nickel due to the strategic restrictions on the use of nickel. Cadmium is supposed to be quite toxic and has nowadays been almost entirely superceded by nickel for plating. That being the case are there any concerns about using cadmium-plated tools, in particular the possible absorption of cadmium through skin contact (sweaty hands)?

Scrit

 

[Shady]

Hmm... Interesting subject:

OK, accepting that it's your decision as a grown up boy:

a) Fundamentally, the evidence is that Cadmium as a metal/alloy is not absorbed through the skin:

"Primary control should focus on inhalation although cadmium also can cause toxic effects after ingestion. Cadmium is not absorbed through the skin." (OSHA, revision date 05/04/2000)

b) However, given the possible effects:

Primary routes of exposure for cadmium are ingestion or inhalation. Long-term exposure to cadmium results in a number of negative effects, including emphysema, kidney disease, anemia, liver disturbance, and bone disease. Cadmium is also classified by EPA as a probable human carcinogen.

c) My concern would be the combination of Cadmium, my skin, and all the solvents we play with in the workshop - oils, acetone, thinners etc etc. It is certainly theoretically possible that, either through unbroken skin as a dissolved solution, or through a cut/graze in the same way, you could be exposing yourself to some risk. Pretty unlikely, but not impossible. Given that we're talking utility planes, I'd be inclined to regard the risk as not worth the candle, but that's just me, and on balance, I'd say that, for example, the health risk from dust in your workshop is probably greater... So, really, your call depending on your response to this info. Just don't eat them or try to smoke them - that will be a bad idea... :lol:

 

[CHJ]

Hi Scrit,
From what I can remember from doing the COSHH assessments, plated products in good condition presented little risk in handling compared with the natural exposure found in general machine shop where it might be machined or made volatile whilst welding etc.

One (USA) reference I found giving a clear guide was This (Can't put my hand on the UK version.)

Beware of any that have a white deposit, often found on plated items in electronic equipment or electrical cabinets as it is easily transferred to hands/food/cigarets etc.

I think most smokers absorb more daily than you might get from handling the solid product.

 

[Scrit]

Thank you for the responses. This question came about because I took some plane components to a local electro plater who happens to do nickel and it was he who told me that the components were cadmium plated rather than nickel and that they wouldn't replate in cadmium for health and safety reasons.

If I wanted to replate these items in nickel do you know if they would need to be unplated first, or would it be sufficient to degrease then nickel plate?

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

scrit,

good question to allow us to consider a number of areas apart from
extraction where we might harm ourselves.

plating, be it nickel, cadmium or chrome is in fact a nasty activity,
involving acids, and heavy metals, but also often involving plating
on metals which are alloys.

any of you with older dinky toys will know about mazac, and
older car owners will have door handles on their older model
mg, or vauxhall, and those are alloys plated, and often have
a kind of speckled appearance these days, this is due
to the plating over time re-acting with the alloy, and improper
cleaning..

actually checking old motorbikes will give you a better idea.

originally they were plated with nickel, but often over copper plating.
and indeed, the best chrome plating should be done over copper
too.

where i would be concerned, is whether the plating has de-layered,
and part of it are peeling or shaking off, and the splinters might stick into
you. or the dust might get you.

remember, nickel, chrome, and cadmium are in modern definitions
proabably likely to be classed as heavy metal in their waste and
natural conditions, but not when properly installed.

since we have had other long discussions about sharpening plane blades,
maybe we should really look more carefully at breathing in the
fumes when sharpening. even on my tormek, maybe now i should
think about wearing a mask?????

could this be the excuse others need to buy new planes from LN and LV????


rather than risk using materials that we now consider unsafe :twisted: :twisted:

it seems that the dust in the workshop is more dangerous than
cadmium on your plane.

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

your other reply jumped mine, scrit
i would check a couple other platers to find out, and maybe
get a copy of their coshh rules that they are going to rely on.

the major problem with plating over plating is that you cannot
guarantee to get a smooth overall finish.

motor bike restorers tend to try to remove ALL the plating before
re-plating, not least because the cost of removing substances is
higher than the plating cost, so if you can remove all the plating
it will give you a better, and much less expensive job.

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

Paul

It's 20 odd years since I did a Velo frame, so my memory is now a bit hazy. I recall that the plater bead or vacublasted them with something friable (ground cherry stones?) which removed the plating but left the steel underneath OK. Would that be a good way to proceed rather than deplating?

Scrit

 

[mahking51]

Scrit
I regularly get items re nickeled at my local plating shop; old Stanley 66's and the like.
They completely strip the old coating usually by softish blast media then passivate, degrease and then copper then sulphated nickel. Mostly this is over a rough finish as per the original tool but they do lightly polish the wear areas and top ribs etc. Very happy with their work though not inexpensive! They do all the little thumb screws and small parts as well.

I echo what others have said in that cadmium metal is not inherently bad news but any time it is volatilised, grinding, welding or via solvents etc it wants careful watching. Better safe than sorry.
All plating solutions are very bad news indeed and great effort is taken to minimise spray from the tank agitators. I would not work in a plating shop for any money.

Regards
Martin

 

[engineer one]

scrit,
as an ariel man, i have always found the velo enthusiast a little
strange, those funny clutches etc, plus that frame!!!!

however you are right, about a softer product, but frankly i wonder
whether with the proper masking, you could use a sander, say one
attached by spindle or a dremel type drill, and that would i think
give a good smooth finish.

i think blasting would produce more dangerous dust than sanding,
although if you can do it in an industrial cabinet then that would be
ok., but i find that blasting tends to round off the corners too much.

by the by i worked for a while in the plating shop, doing the polishing
on a flap wheel to clean up the surface before acid dipping and
plating.

however, any work you can do before it gets to the platers will save
money, which might make looking at a modern plane almost
economical :lol: :lol: :lol:

paul :wink:
ps sorry alf, reverting to engineering mode again

 

[Scrit]

As an ariel man, i have always found the velo enthusiast a little strange, those funny clutches etc, plus that frame!!!!

Yes, but at least our back pots don't overheat! Believe me, having a frame which accommodates a long seat (3 men and a dog.....) is very useful on the way back from the pub, but I digress.

I've got access to a Guyson cabinet which has a reciovery/recycle system so I think that might be the way to go. Just need to find out what he uses as "shot"

Scrit

 

[Alf]

The one and only warning I've heard about cadmium plated Record planes is don't try and remove the plating - that's presumably when you can ingest the bad stuff. So proceeding with caution seems called for.

Cheers, Alf

 

[engineer one]

alf i also think that part of it is to do with the damage you might do to
the underlying part if you use abrasive paper and so on.

however using an air gun shot blaster in a cabinet will i think be
relatively safe and more accurate.

scrit, some of us actually have single cylinder motor bikes, not the
four cylinder ones that have cooling problems. more importantly
a nice suspension and good roadholding.

i assume you are only going to re plate the cap, so you will need
to drift out the metal dowel for the lever, and make sure there is
enough room after plating for it to move up and down.

be nice to see the results

paul :wink:

 

[Alf]

alf i also think that part of it is to do with the damage you might do to
the underlying part if you use abrasive paper and so on.

Nope, this was definitely specific to trying to remove cadmium plating, but you're right, it's nigh on impossible to do a good job of it. DAMHIKT... 8-[

Cheers, Alf

 

[CHJ]

Scrit, If you want to DIY have a look at this supplier (under plating)used to do a lot of this in my teens when still living on a farm without electricity. (charged my batteries from my push-bike alternator) Mind you I don't think you can get silver or gold cyanide over the counter anymore for SWIMBO's jewelry.

 

[Scrit]

Thank you all for the input. I actually want to refinish a Record #050A (yes, Alf a COMBINATION junior boat anchor) which has suffered rather badly over the years. Depending on how it goes it might go in thios week - or maybe not.....

Scrit

 

[Alf]

Refinish? Sheesh, I thought folks just cut the anchor cable and left them in the oggin when they got too bad... :roll: :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Colin C]

Hi Srit
How much is it going to cost to get it re-finished as I have a Recond 44 that needs re-plating too

 

[Alf]

Sheesh, it's a disease.

Lessee, re-plating won't make them work better, so you can't be users. And re-plating doesn't make them worth more, so you can't be collectors either. So what is this? Boutique plane accumulators looking to make the contents of their display cases shiny?

Deary, deary me... :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

Lessee, re-plating won't make them work better, so you can't be users. And re-plating doesn't make them worth more, so you can't be collectors either. So what is this? Boutique plane accumulators looking to make the contents of their display cases shiny?

:lol:

Well if it was good enough for the late Jim Kingshott.......

You've obviously never had an old motorcycle, Alf, or you might understand. Then again, maybe not....... :wink:

Scrit

 

[Shady]

Lessee, re-plating won't make them work better, so you can't be users. And re-plating doesn't make them worth more, so you can't be collectors either. So what is this? Boutique plane accumulators looking to make the contents of their display cases shiny?

Deary, deary me... Rolling Eyes

Man alive, you're in 'crusty old Alf the curmudgeonly commentator' mode recently Alf: take a chill pill and enjoy the posts... why not clean one's planes if one wishes?? Feel free to abuse me by pm if you need to... :wink: