Breathing dust

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To respond. Bill's stuff drives me nuts when it comes to trying to extract specific information - even if you know it's in there somewhere. Wordy as hell, not well structured with bits of data dropped in all over the place.

He's no finely structured academic or professional, but then no professional would go into this space in the way he has anyway for personal gain - there's simply nothing in it for them. For sure he's a bit of a zealot, but not so far as i can detect for any great gain. He's taken a lot of hits from sectors of the industry in the US it seems in their attempts to silence him, but has never so far as i can tell been put down by hard data.

What is fairly clear is that what it sets out is the direction the hobbyist dust collection industry is now headed - we're increasingly seeing HEPA and high MERV cartridge filters offered as premium alternatives, as well as higher HP fans and cyclones etc. (especially in the US) These in fact are all available from multiple sources there.

Despite this there's a hard fact that has to be taken on board. The reality is that we're used to paying £150 - £200 for a cheapo bag filter unit, and thinking we're doing a great job when we're almost certainly not. Larger motors, cyclones and higher spec filters can be implemented relatively cheaply by going down the DIY route, but even this way they are more expensive. Bought 'off the shelf' (and there's not that many options in the UK yet so far as i can tell - see below) it's got to be quite a lot more expensive.

The fact too is that it's at this stage a judgement call. It will perhaps in time become the norm to use more highly specified systems, but there is never going to be 'proof' on any of this - just the usual cacophony of competing claims. The task is to look for signs of what might be fairly true, and what not - then make your choice.

The big factors in my personal decision to head down this route were:

(a) he's not making any obvious attempt to make profit - his site actively encourages the DIY approach and provides the info. FOC. It might suit to buy an impeller in the US, but that is about all that's not local, and even that can probably be sourced locally as a spare part from the likes of Soler & Palau

(b) i've not come across a negative report by anybody, only the odd issue to do with variations that have crept in in the building. There's personal stories of people's building his system all over the place on the web - most especially on the Clear Vue Forum.

(c) the engineering data he quotes isn't always 100% clear regarding correct interpretation, but adds up and is supported by other eqpt manufacturers. e.g fan tables

(d) the position he outlines on standards is absolutely the norm - that as a result of vested interests protection levels usually lag behind known medical realities.

What he says about Euro filtration standards being higher seems to be true - when i went to buy my filters from Donaldson UK they told me that they do not sell the lower standard 'blend' type cartridge filter offered by Clear Vue in the US in Europe, only their equivalent to the higher spec/more expensive nanofibre type offered by Wynn - the HEPA compliant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA Donaldson Torit Ultra Filter 2. These are sitting in my workshop and are indeed stamped as Ultra Filter 2.

(e) my own experience over the past nine years with a typical 1Kw bag and filter unit with about 2m of 100mm hose showed how borderline it was (the bag had to be kept very clean or the suck disappeared), even for basic chip collection.

We nevertheless have each to make our mind up, and there's no guarantees. I'll be happy to report my experience when i get that far. :)

On what's needed. Bill's clear that you do need more fan kW than has been typical in hobbyist systems to get good dust collection, at least by his route. (and there may be other higher suction/smaller duct options that are technically feasible. The vacuum type systems may be heading this way, but may or may not be there yet)

The deciding factor on kW is the pressure drop created by your m/c hoods, ducting and cyclone. He reckons that with correctly sized short ducting (i.e. as in a very small shop, or (and i'm interpreting here) with one located close to the machine using a shortish a 150mm flexible you can get by with less than the 5hp and 16in impeller of his 'stock' system. The 16in impeller 5hp version draws about 3.8hp in use, leaving a safe margin if extra ducts are left open. (check out the table of HP/impeller size/cfm/duct length on his dust collection basics page) He advises that the design formula suggests some alterations to the cyclone dimensions in this case though.

It seems you start getting decent function in short run/low pressure drop situations from about 2kW upwards. Longer or more restrictive duct runs need more grunt.

The problem on fine filtration seems to be that it would be hugely expensive to run HEPA standard filters without an effective cyclone, in that they cost too much and don't clean that easily - they would block and need replacement too often.

He claims his cyclone proportions work very well (this view is borne out by users), says that it's common for makers to offer much less effective proportions to save money/space, but is equally clear that his dimensions come from the long established formula developed by one of the US professional bodies and used by makers of commercial dust collection systems.

By this the units you mentioned seem to be on the lower end on kW, how well they might filter or separate dust depends on the design and spec.

The problem at the end of the day is that most DIY/hobbyist systems seem to be underspecified. If you want something off the shelf the Super Gorilla system available from Oneida's UK rep (see http://www.oneida-air.com/gorilla_3hp.php - there's 2hp, 3 hp or 5hp options) seems worth checking out as its more in the space Bill is talking about. I've not looked closely at it as for me the DIY route seemed much more cost effective.

There seem to be a few other highly specified off the shelf cyclone and cartridge filter systems like this available in the US, but i'm not sure what's around in the UK other than this. It's likely too that the more professional systems available here don't surface in the mags. (e.g. the Felder units seem worth a look, but i didn't check them out properly as the price put me off)

Anyway...
 
I would also add that it is all very well to focus at the suck end of the problem (big fans, filters etc) but half the problem in dust extraction for the hobbyist is getting the dust into the pipe in the first place - ie the tool end. However large a fan and pipe you use, it will not be effective unless you have a good arrangement at the blade/enclosure of the tool in use.

Most small, particularly hand held, machines have abysmal extraction. It is up to us to use our ingenuity to invent arrangements that suit the tool and job we are using it for. Big suck helps, but airflow arrangements at the blade are also key.

Boz
 
ondablade":eubqer6g said:
By this the units you mentioned seem to be on the lower end on kW, how well they might filter or separate dust depends on the design and spec.

As a complete amatuer at this dust control game, this is one of the things that confuses me. All the way through Bill's writings he repeatedly states that the important thing is airflow >800CFM (1,400m3/h), he then works backwards from that to get the hp of the motors required to generate that. The Axminster ADE2200 I was looking at (just because I know how to navigate the Axminster site, not because I am pro/anti Axminster) has a 1.5hp motor (1,100W), but shifts 2,200m3/h. So which should I be looking at hp, or m3/h?

My brain hurts...
 
Is there still a need for protection if using mostly hand-tools? I'm assuming that because shavings are created as opposed to dust, that it renders protection unnessacary?
 
ByronBlack":1jo2kgf0 said:
Is there still a need for protection if using mostly hand-tools? I'm assuming that because shavings are created as opposed to dust, that it renders protection unnessacary?

Yes and no, IME.

I was doing a lot of hand sanding recently (late at night, didn't want to create noise) and the dust was getting everywhere. Whereas the next day I connected the ROS to the vac, and very little dust was left.


Cheers

Karl
 
Karl":1cbaj86w said:
ByronBlack":1cbaj86w said:
Is there still a need for protection if using mostly hand-tools? I'm assuming that because shavings are created as opposed to dust, that it renders protection unnessacary?

Yes and no, IME.

I was doing a lot of hand sanding recently (late at night, didn't want to create noise) and the dust was getting everywhere. Whereas the next day I connected the ROS to the vac, and very little dust was left.


Cheers

Karl

Yes, I can see how sanding could be a problem - something I'll be avoiding with using planes/scrapers. I do have a decent ROS with vac and generally use that if I have to do sanding - but I do try and avoid it.

The only dust making process I have to deal with is the router-table. I need to make some decent dust collection for it.
 
ByronBlack":1s2ndc76 said:
Is there still a need for protection if using mostly hand-tools? I'm assuming that because shavings are created as opposed to dust, that it renders protection unnessacary?

According to Bill (no citations, no evidence, caveat emptor etc.) Even hand planing will generate a low volume of fine dust as the wood fibres shatter like glass at the microscopic level. So hand planing apprently generates a small volume of really fine nasty dust that you can not see, but very little coarse dust that you can see.

How true that is I don't know. How much dust that puts into the air I don't know. If that is likely to push your dust dosage up noticably I don't know.
 
I'm not too sure about that either Frugal. It's got to be less of an issue than with power tools, the advent of stuff like MDF (you would think) and our modern urge to sand everything to a very fine finish. On the other hand there definitely was an incidence of breathing and related issues back in the good old days of hand tools too if my uncles' experience is anything to go by.

To get technical - time to peel away if you bore easily. HP vs. CFM. It's not a dead simple relationship, and that's one reason why HVAC (heating, ventilation and air conditioning) design tends to be a separate engineering speciality.

On the other hand it's not that complicated either. The essential issue is that the performance of every fan can be characterised on a graph, or fan curve.

It simply records how the output (in cfm or cubic feet per minute, or in metric cubic metres (m3)/hour) responds to changes in static pressure (in our case the restriction - in inches water gauge (written in H2O, in WG, or in metric mm WG or Pa (Pascals) - all measures of pressure) generated by the system (ductwork, flex hoses, bends, cyclone, etc) at whatever cfm or volume of air flow we want - at the RPM (revs per minute) of our preferred motor. It also records HP or in metric kW for each point on the curve.

Here's a fairly typical example - click 'view data sheet' at bottom of page, then go to page 2 The type of fan used in dust collection is typically a radial centrifugal. These fans all have a generally similar shape of curve, but the numbers vary with size and rpm.

Different fan types perform better or worse in various pressure ranges. Axial fans for example move lots of air, but only against very little restriction; dust system fans go a bit higher (up to about 15 in WG) before the volume starts to tail off really quickly, and other higher speed (noisier) and different design types go much higher still.

You can look at these in any fan maker's catalogue - Soler and Palau in Europe or Cincinnati Fan in the US are good examples.

Radial centrifugals are very inefficient (use a lot of power for not so many cfm), but perform well at pressure drops that are useful in our systems and can tolerate chunks of wood and shavings coming through in the air.

To make sense of claimed numbers. First off there is as above not that much difference in performance between different makers' fans - a 14 in radial centrifugal impeller does similar numbers no matter who made it.

The big issue in selecting dust systems using many maker's claims of cfm is that according to Bill they do not specify the pressure drop against which it was tested. They seemingly in order to make the numbers look impressive test their fans with e.g. an open inlet and no ducting. (minimal restriction) So whoopee, big cfm in the blurb sheets. But numbers which cannot be achieved in any practical ducting system.

This says nothing about any specific manufacturer of fans or dust systems, but Bill says his testing has shown that many of the cfm numbers claimed are hopelessly optimistic for this sort of reason. What's more he says that to save money the motors fitted often don't have enough HP to shift this much air anyway except for a short burst, but advantage is taken of the fact that if in use you restrict the inlet to a fan the HP drawn to turn the impeller is reduced - so overloading is prevented.

How to get around this? It starts with your machine hood and ducting layout and cyclone. Bill's pages draw on standard duct design tables (lots of the fan manufacturers publish the same info) so you can estimate the pressure drop it will produce at the (say 800 - 1000cfm) he advocates. Mine in 160mm metal ducting comes out at about 8in WG total, but it's not an exact science.

The resistance gets much higher for a given airflow with typical 4 in ducting, but on the other hand these systems are usually not fitted with enough fan or impeller to drive larger ducting anyway.

Armed with the pressure drop info you then head for a proper curve for each of those fans which you think might do the business - which as above shows cfm vs restriction or pressure drop. Entering the curves at the pressure drop for your system you keep going until you find the curve for a fan that gives the required cfm.

The fan selected should be comfortably in the middle of its range so that if you got your estimate of pressure drop a little wrong the cfm won't change too much - a fan whose output suddenly declines just above your estimated pressure would for example be risky. (what would happen as your filters start to blind?)

Bill suggests heading for the radial centrifugal fan data published by Cincinatti Fan on their website to access fan curves. (in this case the information is given in table form) - the point being that industrial supplier's fans have to deliver their claimed performance (ASHRAE and the like specify standard testing methods) as they would otherwise be sued by system designers using the data. He also on his own page 'dust collection basics' simplifies this into a table showing how much ducting the differing sizes of fan (motor and impleller) can realistically support.

From this you can (roughly) select an impeller size and extract the required HP and rpm.

This gives you a basis against which to check the claims by dust system manufacturers. First off ask for a fan curve, but they probably won't be able to give you one.

Failing that figure out what size (diameter) of impeller is fitted, and what rpm the motor turns it at. What cfm does the fan curve you have cunningly dug up say it should shift at the pressure drop you need? What HP should it need? Then check whether the motor plate shows it has enough HP to do that.

This is a good way of figuring if something is likely to be amiss - but in the end it's as simple as the fact that no matter what is claimed a 1.5hp or similar fan (unless it's some brand new ultra efficient design) cannot shift enough air to do a good job on fine dust unless your ducting is correctly sized, designed and very very short indeed.

There's unfortunately no instant answer in this territory - most of the information needed to get through this process is somewhere on Bill's pages (or in the fan and ducting maker's data sheets) - but it requires a fair amount of study to reach the point where you can fairly reliably figure what gels, and what does not. Which is why it'd help a lot if you could trust the claims of many equipment makers.....
 
I think my problem is I don't want to understand the science I just want someone to tell me what I need :D . What I don't want to do is invest time and money in one solution only to find a.n.other "expert" deems it inadequate and drags me off in yet another direction.

I'd like a really simply air quality meter that I can hang up in the workshop to check my environment periodically in much the same way as I do, say, the temperature.
 
matt":wn92bqs3 said:
I...
I'd like a really simply air quality meter that I can hang up in the workshop to check my environment periodically in much the same way as I do, say, the temperature.

Polish a nice piece of stainless steel sheet or similar and place it on a horizontal flat surface in the shop out of the way of direct machine output, wipe a finger over it at the end of a session or next day when you come back in the shop.
 
Hi Matt. As before there are several makers of properly engineered systems for hobby/DIY use in the US, and what appears to be one of these at least (the Oneida Super Gorilla system) is available in the UK. (i've not checked it out though - as before because it's quite a lot more expensive than the Pentz/DIY route)

The trouble in the end though is that you either end up having to get into the technicalities, or find somebody you trust to sell or advise you - or just take a flyer.

On the metering of air quality. Such a device (the Dylos particle counter) has recently come available, and sells in the US for about $200 and above depending on the spec. (it's a consumer version of the very expensive kit used to check air quality in clean rooms)

It's also available in the UK, but the price isn't published where i have looked.

The feedback on it is very good - it gets down to 0.5 micron with the right model. Bill Pentz, Clear Vue and others speak very highly of it. It's maybe telling though that a fairly casual search of the big woodworking suppliers found none selling it - despite their selling lots of dust systems.

I'm not sure if it reads quantitatively so you can match the result to air quality standards - i.e. in terms of mg dust of a given particle size range/cubic metre of air - but a quick read of the literature would sort that one. (i can't afford one yet, so i haven't really looked yet)

It's reportedly educational to set one up, and to then do something minor like slap your hands on a dusty apron - and then watch what happens to dust levels.

This is the maker's info page:

http://dylosproducts.com/learnabout.html

They talk about it's use in woodworking here:

http://www.dylosproducts.com/wocrandshair.html

Here's one UK source (they sell mostly to people with asthma etc):

http://www.gradko.co.uk/air_particle_monitor.shtml

Here's what Clea Vue have to say about it:

http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Dylos.htm
 
frugal":1gwn13le said:
As a complete amatuer at this dust control game, this is one of the things that confuses me. All the way through Bill's writings he repeatedly states that the important thing is airflow >800CFM (1,400m3/h), he then works backwards from that to get the hp of the motors required to generate that. The Axminster ADE2200 I was looking at (just because I know how to navigate the Axminster site, not because I am pro/anti Axminster) has a 1.5hp motor (1,100W), but shifts 2,200m3/h. So which should I be looking at hp, or m3/h?

My brain hurts...

I see the ADE2200 primarily as a chip collector/extractor. The standard top filter is only a cloth bag, meaning that any dine dust escapes back in to your working atmosphere. You can buy a replacement cartridge filter (0.5 microns, I think?) but, it's not cheap. Airflow is significant to the amount of waste that can be extracted from the source (as opposed to looking at this from a H&S point of view). As Boz says though; sometimes, it's hard enough getting a good connection near to the source. Planer thicknessers also generate a surprising amount of fine dust (check your top filter bags after a session!).
 
I have been spending quite a bit of time looking at Bill's website and the various other websites around that involve walkthroughs of building a cyclone. So I have been trying a mental exercise to see just how hard it would be to bild one of these things.

Metal looks doable (I have a cheap MIG welder that I have a hate/hate relationship with). I have also looked at the PETG that the Clearvue cyclones are made out of, it looks like cold forming it at the sizes required should not be a problem. That just leaves the motor and blower.

Does anyone know of suppliers of the required size motors and impellors?
 
I was going to fab my own cyclone Frugal, but found i could get it made in 18G galvanised steel by the guys who are supplying my (galvanised spiral) ducting in Dublin for €125 which seemed a good deal. I should have it this week. I'll make the MDF disc that fits in the top.

I bought my motor new locally. It seems you can get a cheap 240V 3 ph 2 pole/2850rpm eastern model for less than £200, or a good brand Euro item for about £300. I went for the better motor just to be safe given the heavy impeller and frequent starts.

Whether or not to buy a single phase 2850rpm motor, or to go for the above three phase and inverter was a bit of a decision for me. The system was developed around a 3,450rpm US spec single phase 60Hz motor. I spent quite a bit of time playing with fan curves to decide. In the end i decided to play safe and went for the inverter - although Ed Morgano reckoned it should be OK with a single phase 2850rpm motor.

There were several reasons for this. First off at the lower rpm the fan curve (i dug out 2850rpm curves from the Cincinatti Fan link Bill Pentz provides) is probably enough to give 850cfm plus with the relatively low pressure drop of a garage sized system with properly sized and designed ducting. Trouble is that as the resistance/pressure drop gets higher the fan output tails off much more rapidly than at 3450rpm.

Thinking of possibly partially blocked filters i thought better safe than sorry, especially since i'm running with 160mm ducting which needs about 10% more cfm to maintain a given fpm airspeed. (you need to stay above 4,000fpm it seems to avoid any risk of blocking in verticals) Other positives are the soft start the inverter provides means minimal surge in amps on start up = less risk of problems with the supply ( i have a 4Kw single ph saw too), the option to vary the speed of the fan, and a 3phase dual voltage motor.

The inverter was new also from: http://www.axiscontrols.co.uk/en-GB/omr ... rices.aspx . This was easily the best price i could find for a 4kW single to 240V 3ph inverter. Omron are one of only a few doing that large a unit in single phase. They actually supplied an identical Yaskawa branded item (Ya are the maker of the Omron), and were very efficient.

I bought the fan and balanced steel impeller (fitted with a 28mm dia taper lock bush to suit the Euro motor shaft dia) from Ed Morgano at Clear Vue - on the basis that the impeller is proven, and with the fan not too expensive. (laziness on my part in the case of the fan, as its easily DIYable) Plus while you could i wasn't in the mood for spending weeks searching for an impeller locally. Ed by the way is spot on - an older semi retired guy who seems to be doing this for the right reasons, but on the ball.

Don't forget too that my system is still under construction, so like me you will be relying on what you can extract from forums etc on how well (or not!) these systems work.

I should say that it's been a bit of a journey to even get this far, and in this regard i'd like very much to thank Bob (Nine Fingers) who has been of great assistance - both directly, and through his write up on induction motors which also covers inverters. (see the head of the forum)
 
Where do you guys get your disposable FFP3 masks from? I currently use FFP2 but may upgrade although they're super-pricey. I work with hardwoods every day (oak, ash and elm, not the most notorious ie tropical hardwoods).

Incidentally I did an office job for many years and had bad asthma. Since becoming a fulltime cabinet maker a few years ago my asthma has gone. Wear masks most of the time, but not all. Go figure.
 

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