Breathing dust

[RogerS]

ErictheVikings' post has prompted me to pass on a timely warning regarding dust.

The client I am working for is a Doctor. A patient presented himself in hospital with difficulties breathing. An x-ray has shown that the lungs are basically shot. Very fine dust has found its' way all the way down to the very finest tips of the lungs (alveoli?). Once there, it doesn't come out. So this guy is basically a dead man walking since it is only a matter of (short) time before he gets a lung infection that finishes him off.

How did he get to this state? Was it a lifetimes' work in a dusty environment?

No, it was a single weekend grinding and cutting patio slabs without a mask.

 

[Beowolf]

A timely warning indeed.

I need to take a belt sander to some slate slabs soon. The only mask I have is a supply of these:

Apart from not fitting that well, they fog up safety glasses enough that I can use one or the other, but not both.

What's a good alternative?

 

[big soft moose]

you want something like an airace - by the way when grinding slabs makesure you also wear full face protection aas a guy i know lost an eye from a tiny bit of granite that was shot into it off the grinder

 

[Steve Maskery]

A powered respirator is the answer, and can be used with specs. I have an ancient Turbovisor and a more modern PowerCap Lite. They are both excellent. The tubovisor flips up when I need to get it out of the way for inspection, and the PCL is, as its name suggests, light.

V recommended.

S

 

[Blister]

I will be using a

P&J extractor
A Jet air Filter
A Axminster air filter
A Microclean air filter

And a Trend air shield in my workshop when its up and running

OVERKILL ? Maybe

Rather have to much that not enough filters :wink:

 

[cutting solutions]

One of my Reps in a previous employment got big C in his nose.
He had been complaining to the Doc for ages that he was always sniffly.

when they finally investigated and diagnosed.....
he lost half his nose and one eye.

Cause?
Hardwoods/redwoods.

 

[Max Power]

That is horrendous :shock: When I did kitchens we often had to cut channels in concrete floors for gas pipes etc, not an enviable task as the room was full of dust in seconds . We bought a new Stihl saw that had a connection for a water pipe which enabled a pressurized mist of water to spray on the blade, what a revelation, no dust whatsoever ,happy fitters and very happy customer

 

[ondablade]

To weigh in again on the risks of fine dust - i've been banging away (boring people) to publicise Bill Pentz's work on how inadequate and ineffective most DIY level dust systems and dust 'protection' masks actually are. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DCBasics.cfm

My interest arose solely as a result of the reading i've done in the past year to decide how best to handle dust in my shop - i was blithely lining up to buy a slightly larger version of my usual DIY 1kW bag filter set up. Thinking i was doing a great thing...

The topic is a bit like the issue of child abuse in the catholic church - nobody wants to hear the message (don't want the trouble, the cost, to admit a problem, whatever), and quite a few get angry at threat to the status quo. (the great unspoken: 'if everybody is using it then it must be safe...' - actually a head in the sand job)

Then when the bubble busts and mirage disappears everybody knew it. (many did too, but most didn't want to hear) The 'appalling vista' is a well known psychological phenomena - people are programmed to turn a blind eye to information that conflict with their societal programming/the view of the prevailing culture - which of course is primarily aimed at maintaining the status quo.

We've probably had it before, but this is a solid but very readable article summarising the proven (a lot more is suspected) risks of wood dust as the situation stands right now: http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0595_1.html

I had years of heavy duty sinus trouble, and sinus surgery to clear a chronic sinus infection in the late 90s - all following only a few years of hobby modeling in wood, and doing some small scale sanding of parts. Dust was always blamed in my case, but I'd not realised the scale of the issue until i read Bill's stuff.

I'm not going there again, which is why i'm spending a little to do my best to set up effective dust collection arrangements in my shop.

I've in the meantime watched two uncles and a family friend die later in life from emphysemia. Two triggered almost certainly by exposure to wood dust while working in the then family sawmill and furniture factory, one by dust from grinding animal feeds.

Fine sub micron dust (the stuff that gets past standard filters) is literally lethal - the normal clearance mechanisms of the body can't handle it as Roger says. That's just the physical nature of the stuff, the question of the ability of particular dusts (like red cedar) to over time trigger allergic responses and cancers then kicks in...

 

[Beowolf]

After reading all that, I think I'll get hold of a better mask before tackling the slate - or practically anything else!

A powered respirator is simply out of my budget for a while, but I'll get that Trend airace - or something similar - as soon as I can.

The airace has an attachable shield, but it looks odd having it open at the top. How much of a problem is stuff falling down into it likely to be?

 

[ondablade]

Hi B. To be a PIA by raising questions i don't have answers to ......

In the end you need to match the mask filter media to the type of dust or vapour you need to protect against. For example as has been said before a dust filter is not much use against the solvent vapours you get with paints, and presumably vice versa.

Stone/cement dusts may or may not (i don't actually know) need a different filter to wood dust - exposure limits vary widely for different materials.

What's more there are different levels of protection to be had from differing regulatory standards applied to both dust systems and protective clothing - and some of the lower ones are not all that effective. Especially on the finer sub micron particles.

The Bill Pentz page i linked above gives a fairly decent overview of the relative capability of dust filtering arrangements to the various levels/ standards in the US - with the point being that the lower end typically used OSHA or ACGIH standards for workplace air quality do not meet what is very well know medically to cause health problems.

Interestingly enough it seems that EU standards and the UK regulatory framework is very good - in that permitted dust levels are based on medical data, and have not been heavily watered down by industry lobbying as in the US. (he references this) Here's a summary of the regulatory situation regarding wood dust in the workplace: hse on wood working shop air quality regs

Here's a HSE document on selection of respirators for use in woodworking: hse on wood dust respirators

I haven't studied them yet, but they look pretty good. The HSE publications website http://www.hse.gov.uk/index.htm is actually a great resource for this sort of material.

Sticking the word 'respirator' in the search brings up all sorts of very useful and to the point stuff. e.g a top quality air fed mask is required for spraying 2 pack paints: http://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/myths/myth3.htm

 

[wizer]

I'm using a power respirator now whenever I'm in the workshop 'doing something'. I'm going to get an air cleaner but I'm not particularly sold on that idea TBH. Catching it at source and a respirator is the best way IMHO. If you want as near to TOTAL protection, then something like Chas's (CHJ) 3M powered kit is about the best you can get for a somewhat reasonable price (Expensive but probably worth it for your health).

 

[woodbloke]

I clean up whenever possible and use a P2 mask most of the time. I tried and Airshield some time ago but couldn't get on with buzzing from the motor in my head. I also use the Ax ambient air extractor on a timer...I also extract at source from the bs, table saw, p/t and power tools - Rob

 

[Digit]

3M powered kit is about the best you can get

Which is what I have and very good it is. The only snag with mine is the cost of filters and face shields.
I purchased mine SH with a duff battery, amazing what you can do with Ni-Cads and a soldering iron! :lol:

Roy.

 

[Karl]

I find this story very hard to believe. A man effectively KILLS himself with a weekends work??????????

Not doubting you Roger, but it seems far fetched to the extreme to me.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Mr Ed]

The case mentioned sounds like Silicosis, but my understanding is that it is caused by regular and prolonged contact with silica dust, not casual exposure.

On the wider subject of dust, it is something that worries me. I use extraction, an air cleaner and a Trend Airace but even so we are all exposing ourselves to risks that are not present in other hobbies. Makes the case for handtool woodworking quite strongly; if you think about the risks of dust inhalation, noise induced hearing loss and chopping off fingers and so on, the use of machines grows less appealing.

Ed

 

[Racers]

Hi,

Yep hand tools are very good dust wise, and also tou get a lot better finish if you don't sand any thing, a nice sharp plane or scraper leaves a wounderfull finish.

Pete

 

[wizer]

I wonder if there are statistics on how many 'serious' woodworking hobbiests have had respiratory problems that can be related to wood dust? I doubt it. But it's something that someone should look at. If not a Govt. Agency, the magazines. It's obviously no where near as dangerous as Asbestos. I guess it's hard because there are so many different types of wood and so many different ways to create/come in contact with the dust.

 

[grahamar]

I have a Power Cap Lite also.
I find it very good/comfortable to use. As a spectacle wearer I tried the face masks first ( cheaper option!) but they just steamed up my glasses to an extent where working was getting dangerous - i.e. couldn't see what I was cutting! No such trouble with the Power Cap.

Yes there is buzzing from the fan, but you don't hear it over the noise of the Router anyway .....

 

[wizer]

In terms of noise, I found the Powercap much more acceptable than the Trend version. Much lighter too. However, it's not got as higher protection rating as the trend.

 

[ondablade]

The issue is probably not as terrible as it might appear, in that if you dig in the statistics on wood induced cancer the reported incidence is pretty low, and its seems to be linked mostly to certain woods. On the other hand there's probably lots of asthma and other wheezing going on that is wood and other dust related, but is not identified as such - medicine being full of specialists is not good at joined up thinking.

Not everybody is i guess necessarily as sensitive to wood dust as i am, so maybe it's probably no worse than/not as bad as smoking!!

What is worrying is that there's a lot of very good information out there that gets applied to varying degrees in the context of the employee/workplace.

There's on the other hand a major grey area in the private/DIY space where so far as i can tell it seems that lots of marginal equipment is being sold on the basis that it falls outside of the regulatory frameworks - this presumably because of a presumption that (a) if you want to kill yourself its your own business, and (b) DIY implies only occasional exposure.

HSE on applicability of their regulatory framework: '‘Domestic premises’ - means a private dwelling. These Regulations do not apply to
domestic premises, and exclude homeworkers.'

Because this end of the market is not much regulated (and i'm not particularly calling for regulation, but better education would be good) there's not that much good information in common circulation in this scenario.....

On silicosis. It seems to be relatively long term, but it's unfortunately only one of many serious condition the stuff can induce: http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/silicacrystall ... ooked.html

Bear in mind too that in the case of wood there's a very distinct possibility that it may have many subtler effects that are not well recognised, and also that the effects can be very wood species specific.

Bill Pentz has a good list of known wood toxicity and other issues in the section on his site that deals with the medical effects of dust.