A couple of questions about built ins

[Random Orbital Bob]

I'm asking for advice on a couple of aspects about fitting a built in shelving unit into a boot-room for a client. What's happening in my world is I'm getting increasing amounts of bespoke joinery jobs inside peoples homes. The latest is a request for a floor to ceiling boot rack/coat rack that's a built in between a door reveal and the edge of the architrave of a garage door inside a space that's essentially a boot/utility room.

My plan is to make 2 ply sides and a ply top and then house 5 permanent shelves at various intervals leaving a central space big enough to hang coats. Above that will be decorative gallows brackets supporting the final upper shelf which will be spaced to allow a series of baskets. It'll be a paint finish which I'm not expecting to have to do.

My questions relate to making accurate measurements of the width of the alcove it will sit in. Using a tape the gap looks very close to true (about 957mm) and given it's a new build then I would expect some semblance of use of a level!! So that's good but I'm going to build this off site in my workshop and then assemble and glue on site and don't want to cock up the width or we're in trouble. Should I use a rod to accurately mark the truly precise gap between the alcove walls?

I'm thinking I should use a rod to mark at say 4 points from floor to ceiling, take the narrowest and build to that width and then fill any resultant gap with appropriate moulding (which I'll have to make to match the existing furniture). Does this sound like a plan that will yield the right measurement?

Also, the thing will go right to ceiling. Just as the gap between the sides and the garage door architrave will be sealed with bespoke moulding, I will also trim the top out that way. I was thinking of fixing a batten to the ceiling to which I will fix the top of the unit. Whats the best way to locate ceiling joists behind plasterboard? Is it literally a case of shoving a bradawl through until you hit something? There is no access to the space above so I cant see for myself.

Also does cascamite allow a decent paint finish if there is any squeeze out? This will be in a moist environment so I want to avoid non waterproof glues.

Final question, does the usual run of the mill ply (£45 a sheet for 3/4" type stuff) from the sheds take a paint finish well enough as I want to avoid the expense of Baltic birch or marine ply since this is inside and painted?

Thanks in advance for any responses and indeed, I'm not big on built ins so any other tips from the experienced would be welcome.

 

[CHJ]

Use a rod and check corners to corners.

If in doubt why not spend a few £ extra and build a skeleton box frame out of 2X 1 to place in recess, this will give you fixed clearances to scribe you final build to.

 

[RobinBHM]

Others may disagree, but in my experience it is much easier to contruct built in cabinetry with fitting tolerance and design the detailing so that any scribing can be done with quite thin section trims or mouldings. With some clever thought scribe trims can appear part of the detailing rather than an add-on to hide a joint.

If you dont allow much tolerance there is a risk of the carcassing not fitting if the opening is out of square, tapered etc

Could you remove the existing archs then fit the carcase and put back some wider archs? -the architrave can act as the cover trim so no need for scribing to cover any gaps

The way I see it, if you have to make to the smallest width, its best to make it say 10mm narrower than the smallest dimension. (check back and front size -dont bend the tape to get the internal width, measure say 1 metre one way then then the other and add together)

The quickest way to find joists in ceilings is to drill a few small holes say 2mm or 3mm until you find the joist. The joists will be at set centres so the next one will be say 400mm away etc.

 

[Woodmonkey]

The ceiling batten will not be load bearing so I would just drill wherever and use plasterboard fixings.
MDF will paint up a lot nicer than ply, use the moisture resistant stuff.
As Robin said, don't try and fit it too tight, as long as your infills are the same each side it will look fine with say 50mm infill each side and top.

 

[screwpainting]

I would strike a plumb line center of the back wall and both the side walls. From these lines check into the corners for both plumb and square off each other. Any old square thing will do, just make a mark at say waste height, out from the corner at the line on the square and check into the corners from top to bottom. This will give you a pretty good idea how good/bad the internals are for square and how parallel the sides are to the back wall. I bet the spread didn't dick about in here (a tight space) and probably plastered it freehand so I would expect the worst if I were you Bob. The internals will definitely be curved and not square, at skirting level there will probably be plaster to hack off, thus do plasterers enrich the building industry

As for the board and dampness, I would try Medite Trycoya MDF, if there's any moisture involved, this stuff is bomb proof, very tight and takes routed profiles well and it's really nice to paint, shame its a bit expensive. It really isn't like ordinary or moisture resisting, this is excellent stuff.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Thanks chaps. The trouble is my understanding is that MDF, even the better quality MR stuff like Medite is insufficient in the stiffness department to act as the sides for this?? I should maybe clarify one point. This space is only an alcove at its left side. The right side of the cabinet butts to a garage door architrave and then comes out at right angles to the back wall. In other words its free standing floor to ceiling more or less. It will need to provide the housing grooves for the shelves which I realise will add a lot of stiffness and the left hand side will be fixed to the masonry of the returned wall leading to the door reveal (flush with the reveal corner in fact).

My plan was to use 3/4" ply because of its stiffness both in terms of the shelves and the sides. It has two advantages, I can get all 6 widths (5 shelves and the top) and the sides out of a single 8x4 sheet and its way stiffer than MDF. The shelf span is only 975mm or so and the load will only be shoes/boots rather than books so the sagulator maths looks good for 3/4" ply. I was thinking worse case I could lip it with hardwood or even joinery grade redwood since its going to be painted anyway.

So are you saying that medite would be sufficiently stiff to provide the structural role of the right hand side?

Also, any idea what the cost of an 8x4 sheet is (delivered)?

 

[RobinBHM]

18mm ply would be my choice (3/4" in old money ).

Some half decent far eastern ply would be fine -it should come with a smooth grained face veneer that is fine for painting.

I think the Malaysian ply is generally quite good, just avoid the cheap Chinese ply.

You will probably find when you cut it that there are voids in the edge which will either need filling or lipping.

 

[screwpainting]

Sorry Bob I read your post as you were fitting into an alcove with a back and two sides. I would think the Medite would hold up structurally but if its in a high foot traffic area off a garage it may not be as dent and scuff proof as a particular ply? don't know.

I used it to re-skin an up and over garage door last year. It will never/hardly ever be opened, so should not get too much damage. Its been there over six months and still seems okay. It was a joy to work with apart from the usual dust, very hard and not at all furry on routed edges. I only mentioned it due to you mentioning potential moisture

here's a link http://www.meyertimber.com/Products/Med ... e-MDF.aspx

I got mine off Timbmet I think I paid 70quid for 18mm.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Thanks again guys. Sorry I wasn't clear about the design, my fault.

So Robin....how the hell do I know if it's Malaysian or Chinese Ply?? I have used the ply from both Wickes and B&Q before on numerous projects and I tend to give it a light sanding to keep the spikes down. And yes it does have voids but given this is a painted finish and I'll almost certainly trim the cut edges I can always fill any voids that show up. I also might not have mentioned I'm planning to clad the kitchen facing side with bead board to match their existing boot room/utility room furniture.

I'm now starting to think my original plan of basically cheap, shed 3/4" ply is the right solution, just with a bit of care on the finish. 30 minutes sanding is a small price to pay for the price delta between that and Baltic birch which is close to £130 a sheet versus about £45 for the cheap stuff.

 

[screwpainting]

If you don't mind me asking Bob, how are you finishing the external corner of this unit and its connection/finish to the floor. If you are creating a new (to be painted) external corner in this area, it will obviously get clouted a lot and will need to be dent/scuff resistant and hard wearing, probably more so than the edges of the actual shoe rack shelves?.

If the existing floor is wet cleaned (tiled or similar) will the carcass sides and skirting be water and rot proof. We used to jack up end panels etc with a couple of screws screwed up into the bottom edge to give a 5mm gap up off the finished floor material that would be filled and sealed with a silicon bead thus creating a waterproof barrier between the carcass material and the floor, but even then, sometimes we still got stress with carcass material swelling due to water from floor cleaning etc.

That's why I think it's wise to use materials like Medite now that they are more available. Medite openly state that their product does XYZ and they genuinely guarantee those claims. Therefore you have protection from material failure (so long as you don't screw up the installation).

The problem with all types of ply for me (except marine grade 1"), has always been, if it fails in some way (usually many months/years later), it invariably ends up being you that gets to pay for the project to be put right. Suppliers can't give guarantees because its a natural timber product sourced from all over the place, to a price, and even if they do offer any kind of guarantee, its not going to help much in the ' who did what wrong' stress department.

I think most people nowadays are tired of cheap, to a price work, by strangers. They desperately want a recommended tradesman who is known to care and who charges the right price to do the job properly.

Use the best materials available, to the highest standards you can, the result is so much more rewarding, for everyone.

I would avoid B&Q or Wicks sheet material if I were you mate.

 

[skipdiver]

Baltic birch is nowhere near £130 a sheet. I pay £70 for good quality B/BB 18mm and you can get cheaper grades.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I pay £45ish for birch BB grade 18mm. The faces have wooden plugs where the knots are/were but if it's to be painted this is fine. I use Lathams or Roberts, but I'm sure some searching will find something local to you at a sensible price. I really recommend using it instead of poorer quality ply, when I've used ply from my local builders merchants (because it's easy for me to get same day) I have really regretted it.

 

[cornishjoinery]

may i ask what kind of carpentry work you did before having ago at this? Did you not come into contact me measuring tapes and glue?

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

may i ask what kind of carpentry work you did before having ago at this? Did you not come into contact me measuring tapes and glue?

Reading the paragraph below from the OP

"My questions relate to making accurate measurements of the width of the alcove it will sit in. Using a tape the gap looks very close to true (about 957mm) and given it's a new build then I would expect some semblance of use of a level!! So that's good but I'm going to build this off site in my workshop and then assemble and glue on site and don't want to cock up the width or we're in trouble. Should I use a rod to accurately mark the truly precise gap between the alcove walls?"

I'd say he probably did.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Very kind Paddy...saved me typing

 

[cornishjoinery]

Really. If he is going to be taking money off a client for this job, i would at least expect him to know how to take accurate measurements from a job site to a workshop, basic knowledge there. And yes the old saying of you have got to start somewhere but thats where an apprenticeship comes in to learn before you go on your own and working for customers.