Honing the inside of a bowl gouge

[Woodmonkey]

Does anyone do this? Does it make a lot of difference?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The Tormek universe always used to recommend it but personally I always rather suspected that was as much to do with justifying the extra kit on the buffing wheels as anything else ie commercial interest. The way I look at it is that an edge on any turning tool is subjected to ludicrous forces as it repeatedly slams into the spinning wood. Thus any major finessing operation can't last long. I might be prepared to believe that if sheer scraping for one final cut on some difficult grained project that it might subtley improve the finish and save one grit of sanding but I don't think its a biggy personally. Just frequent sharpening is probably enough.

 

[Spindle]

Hi

Never felt the need to hone a turning tool - I use the Tormek system and the fine grind setting of the stone has always proved sufficient.
I've always regarded the honing function of the Tormek to be primarily aimed at carving tools.

Regards Mick

 

[KimG]

I use a small carving hone to take off the burr on the odd occasion, if I am looking for a particularly keen edge for a difficult finishing cut with a bowl gouge, or some fine detail with the spindle gouge.

When sharpening a plane blade or straight chisels, like many woodworkers I start with the back of the blade and bring it to a near mirror finish with a combination of a diamond stone and a Japanese water stone, then do the same for the bevel, using a honing guide, this combination yields an ultra sharp edge, in fact for some time I successfully cut microscope sections to 10 microns with a stanley vanadium plane blade (I later acquired a cryogenic blade that is sharp to a rather scary degree!) but it serves to illustrate the effectiveness of bringing both sides of a cutting edge to a good finish.

So cleaning up a gouge with a hone I find does have an improving effect on the edge, but it isn't often you need it to be that sharp and it doesn't make the edge last noticeably longer, mainly, I suppose, because shortly after it has been used for the finishing cut, it is back to roughing cuts and removing lots of wood as per usual.

So on the whole, for general use there is little or no advantage to honing the inside, the gouge will do the work required just as well without it, but there are times when the keener edge it yields is required.

I always hone a Skew on a fine diamond wetstone.

This is just my own experience with the method.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Hi

Never felt the need to hone a turning tool - I use the Tormek system and the fine grind setting of the stone has always proved sufficient.
I've always regarded the honing function of the Tormek to be primarily aimed at carving tools.

Regards Mick

I remember some time ago there was a bit of a "discussion" on this over on the Tormek forum. Don't forget that the additional buffing wheels (with the 2 different radii for the insides of various sized flutes) are part of the turners jig kit. The assumption being therefore that they carry an advantage for turners. There was a fair bit of debate about how long that ultra, extra fine edge might last when subjected to the forces caused by turning. In the final analysis, the Tormek camp stuck by the notion that it was a good idea but pretty much all the experienced turners said they didn't bother. Then, much like you Kim, there was a suggestion of that one final, tricky cut for a finish where it may be employed.

 

[Grahamshed]

I have enough trouble keeping the outside edge sharp never mind the inside

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

 

[CHJ]

When I occasionally give my gouges a clean-up to remove assorted splashed finishes, masking tape residue, sap residue etc. I will polish the inside flutes on a narrow mdf disc, this does appear to smooth the flow of the debris from the flute, whether this is factual or just a feel good factor is open for debate.
As said above I find that most wood turning tasks destroy the finite cutting edge so quickly that honing to the n'th degree is not practical for me.

<<<My setup (link)

 

[Spindle]

The way I look at it is that an edge on any turning tool is subjected to ludicrous forces as it repeatedly slams into the spinning wood. Thus any major finessing operation can't last long.

Hi

I'm not sure about this:

The only tools that frequently experience interrupted cuts are bowl and roughing gouges and neither seem to blunt any quicker when interrupted cutting is taking place, (the action, after all, is the same as hand chiselling or that of a planer blade, router cutter etc).

What blunts tools is the action of cutting and therefore the length of cut made. In turning the length of cut is at it's maximum when the tool remains in contact with the work for the full rotation and this is where wear is at it's maximum.

I do believe that wear is accelerated, when compared to spindle turning, by the alternating grain cuts experienced when bowl turning.

Regards Mick

turning tool is subjected to ludicrous forces as it repeatedly slams into the spinning wood :shock: - You're doing it wrong Bob :wink:

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Is that why my work keeps flying off the lathe??

 

[Grahamshed]

I think Mick has a fair point. My roughing gouge is probably my most used tool so far and stays sharp for a surprising length of time.

 

[CHJ]

Don't think you can compare turning tool edge wear rates with anything relating to hand tools, the cutting feed rates are several orders of magnitude greater on a lathe with associated accelerated wear rates, router cutters maybe, but 90% of those are carbide or equivalent tipped these days.

Most wear I suggest comes from the embedded silicates within the wood, or in the case of a natural bark covered blank, surface debris.

Don't think the chattering impacts of interrupted cuts has much to do with edge wear, destruction of nerves and brown trouser moments occasionally and a bent piece of steel but I don't think a lump of HSS is that bothered 90% of the time.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Whoops. Mick you've taken my words literally when I said repeatedly slamming. Understandable in fact as they were a poor choice of words. What I meant was simply that turning is aggressive to the edge (not any particular type of cut) and therefore honing the inside of the flute is a bit of a waste of time. That's all. I suspect you have interpreted that as commenting on a particular type of cut ie one where the work is out of balance. My intention was much more generic than that. My use of the terms slamming and repeatedly was meant in the slang context of turning is generically hard on the edge (slamming and repeated). Bad choice of words. Apologies.

 

[Spindle]

Hi Bob

No misunderstanding - I thought you were describing roughing or the initial rounding whilst bowl turning - and I was just pulling your leg over your emotive description.

Regards Mick

 

[Dalboy]

I have never honed my main turning chisels. The only exception is the skew and scraping tools which will be touched up on the grinder if the edges get too bad. I can get quite a respectable finish straight off the tool without having to resort to honing just keep my tools sharp

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Hi Bob

No misunderstanding - I thought you were describing roughing or the initial rounding whilst bowl turning - and I was just pulling your leg over your emotive description.

Regards Mick

Git

 

[woodfarmer]

I do clean the insides of the gouges flutes but this is to remove residue from turning green wood. Like to see clean oiled steel rather than an accumulation of acidic sludge. One thing I do think that blunts tools is those with blunt cutting angles. When starting a big lump of wood for a bowl I like to have the tool cut head on rather than trying the tool on its side approach. It feels so much gentler and the sound is a "chunch chunch" sound and not the "thump thump". I believe this is one reason I had problems starting out, because my tool rest that came with the lathe does not lend itself to high angle tool presentation. When spindle turning it is easily accomplished simply by changing the height of the tool rest.
With regard to using a honed edge for cutting sharpness, I have to confess I still haven't got the hang of the skew chisel and I use mine as a straight scraper and for finishing the angled bits of mortices for the chuck. A day or two ago I just sharpened it and it had a little burr edge. This cut when in scraping mode for a few minutes producing really fine clean shavings and leaving a really ultra good finish on the wood.

I think the point to de burr or not depends on which side of the edge of the tool the burr is on. On the cutting edge it helps on the rubbing edge it doesn't. Either way it won't be there for long.

 

[Paul Hannaby]

I use a carving slip stone to smooth the flutes in my gouges but I don't hone them when I sharpen. A honed edge doesn't last anywhere near as long as one straight of the grinder.

 

[Woodmonkey]

Consensus is no then. Reason I asked is I was looking on the tool post website for a small diamond hone and I read that

woodturners and carvers, in particular, where honing the inside of gouges is still very much a requirement of the craft

Again maybe a case of trying to sell more tools!

 

[CHJ]

Totally different subject relating to carvers where they need a finitely sharp edge for clean cuts with hand pressure paring.

And to a large extent they are not critical of any edge rounding as they do not rely on bevel support in the main for controlling depth of cut like you do on spinning wood, so any slight rounding of the edge from honing stones or leather wheels is not critical.