Greetings all, I have just bought an old wadkin ber2 spindle. It doesn"t have a cutter block. I want to cut tenons from mostly 44mm stock with it. Can anybody advise the best set-up for this procedure?
Many thanks BECKS :?:
Many thanks BECKS :?:
SPINDLE MOULDER
- Thread starter BECKS
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Proper tennoning heads will be the best option as they allow for longer tennons, assume you will be making doors from 44mm stock? There was a similar post a month or so back by JFC which would be worth searching for.
Jason
Jason
ProShop
Established Member
Welcome Becks.
I assume like Jason your intending to make doors, windows etc with that thickness of timber ?.
As Jason suggests you can use proper tennoning heads or discs if your tennons are not that long, but if your looking to make long tennons say 70mm + then you can get combi heads which allow the work piece to fly over the top of the block to create virtually any length you like (within reason
) and you can use tct rebate blades & or scribe cutters on the same block. These are very good and help keep costs down.
Do you have the tennoning hood for the machine ?.
I assume like Jason your intending to make doors, windows etc with that thickness of timber ?.
As Jason suggests you can use proper tennoning heads or discs if your tennons are not that long, but if your looking to make long tennons say 70mm + then you can get combi heads which allow the work piece to fly over the top of the block to create virtually any length you like (within reason
) and you can use tct rebate blades & or scribe cutters on the same block. These are very good and help keep costs down.Do you have the tennoning hood for the machine ?.
Becks
Welcome to the forum.
Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the welcome guys, yes I want the set-up for making mostly doors and windows. Tenoning guard? no mate, it"s just a basic thing, table+fence. No mitre slot, so I"ll have to make a sled of some sort to slide those 9x2s through. I tried a search on tenons, but got hundreds of results, I"ll have to try a few different options on the description. Thanks again. BECKS
Hi BecksFelderMan":21ifw36s said:
Wadkin certainly did offer a tenoning hood for the BER2, although the other thing which is most definitely required is a sliding tenoning table. Trying to tenon on a spindle moulder without a rigid tenoning table and the appropriate hold down clamp is an accident waiting to happen.
Remember. too, that tenoning heads need to have a nicker or scriber to get a clean cut, something which a rebating block doesn't possess
Here is the Wadkin EG tenoning jig comprising table, hold-down and bonnet guard from 56 years ago (1950 tooling catalogue):
As you can see the carraige needs to be substantial and hold the work above the surface of the machine table to allow undercutting of the tenon. If you have no hold-down clamp you risk the work being ripped out of your fingers on anything other than the smallest (e.g. window beading) sections (a spindle moulder takes a considerably larger "bite" than a router). Your carraige will also need a hardwood or plywood backer board to reduce spelch (break-out). A modern equivalent of this carraige is made by Panhans, although the price makes me whince! I see no reason why a home-made carraige on low-cost linear bearings (such as the Pacific low-friction plastic ones sold by Hepco) couldn't be built to do the job. Felder do a very reasonable guard (rather like that supplied with my SCM spindle), although again I see no reason why you could not make up your own from plywood and sheet aluminium using the Felder-pattern as a model.
Scrit
Greetings All, Thanks for all the informative advice, plenty to take in there. I intend to get a days training before I turn the beast on.
Scrit. See what you mean about the cost of the sliding table, U can buy a little car for that. amazing! Not being much of an engineer, any design plans gratefully received! Great old picture from Wadkin, though tenon looks a bit thin to me!
Scrit. See what you mean about the cost of the sliding table, U can buy a little car for that. amazing! Not being much of an engineer, any design plans gratefully received! Great old picture from Wadkin, though tenon looks a bit thin to me!
For anyone who has followed this thread and would like to see more about tenoning on the spindle, please see this thread as well
Becks/Jason
I came across these illustrations of the later Bursgreen tenoning attachment desiged for use with the BER2 and BRS type spindle moulders, so I thought I'd post them for completeness:
The sliding table attachment is much as seen in my earlier post, whilst Wadkin did actually make a 2HP powered top unit which would more or less convert your spindle into a 1950s/60s equivalent of the later Multico tenoner, complete with facility to create differenht length shoulders in one pass:
Scrit
I came across these illustrations of the later Bursgreen tenoning attachment desiged for use with the BER2 and BRS type spindle moulders, so I thought I'd post them for completeness:
The sliding table attachment is much as seen in my earlier post, whilst Wadkin did actually make a 2HP powered top unit which would more or less convert your spindle into a 1950s/60s equivalent of the later Multico tenoner, complete with facility to create differenht length shoulders in one pass:
Scrit
Shivers
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I've managed to do it with 2 steel 9 inch saw blades mounted with a spacer between them on an scmi,this was yrs ago.
What i found was that carbide blades doing the same thing burn like crazy,
You can do the same thing in a tablesaw using a jig too.
regards shivers.
What i found was that carbide blades doing the same thing burn like crazy,
You can do the same thing in a tablesaw using a jig too.
regards shivers.
ProShop
Established Member
I've never seen that attachment before Scrit.
very clever, I'm impressed, out of interest any idea how much it cost at the time ?.
very clever, I'm impressed, out of interest any idea how much it cost at the time ?.
Shivers
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scrit wroteJust depends how enamoured you are of working with unguarded sawblades and an unstable vertical stick of timber.....
Thats why i mentioned the tenoning jig.which is comercially available.
along with a spacer kit
http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B ... ZZZZZ_.jpg
regards ---shivers
Thats why i mentioned the tenoning jig.which is comercially available.
along with a spacer kit
http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B ... ZZZZZ_.jpg
regards ---shivers
Yes, but they're still not allowed in a trade environment because they just can't be guarded. I know that not everyone is trade, but if we trades types are barred from doing certain things isn't that indicative of potential safety issues? In any case a spindle moulder is streets ahead because amongst things it opens up the possibility of things such as scribed tenons.
Scrit
Scrit
Hi Scrit, Ah-- the days when we used to make everything. Not much chance of finding the tenoning table, but with those execllent drawings, should be able to have something similar made up. Now all I need is the 4" flush mounted block---anyone got one for sale? Many Thanks for the research. BECKS
Hi Becks
The 100mm diameter Whitehill Euro blocks (also sold by APTC) will run flush if your spindle moulder top piece supports this. The top of this cutter block has a circa 40mm diameter recess around the spindle boring into which either a top locking plate (circular) can be inserted (for spindles like those on some SCM machines which allow a 40mm diameter plate to be held on top of the spindle by means of a pair of countersunk head machine screws. The blocks are also supplied with a chamfer edge "washer" to fit inside this recess. I believe that this is for use on other machines like the Felder (?) which allow the use of a similar chamfer-edged holding plate. Maybe FelderMan can confirm this. BTW the Whitehill tenoning discs also have a recess to allow them to be secured in a similar manner.
Unfortunately the standard BER2 spindle doesn't support this method of holding (as you know) because it uses a threaded portion and a large nut to hold tooling in place, which is pretty much standard spindle moulder practice. However, some aditional digging has revealed that the spindle top piece on the BER2 should be removeable. The machine was advertised by Wadkin as having a replaceable top piece with 3/4in, 1in and extra 1-1/4in diameter top pieces being available from the manufacturer at one time. So look for a big nut at the bottom of the spindle shaft and you might find you can get the top piece out as a whole. Getting a second top piece made would then be fairly straightforward - but I don't know if you could machine the existing one as it's possibly hardened.
As to making-up a table I'd get hold of a copy of the Felder tooling catalogue - they list a cam hold-down and a tenoning plate which might prove of use. The best bearings I can think of for the task are the "plastic" Simplicity bearings from Pacific Bearing (sold through Hepco in the UK). You might even find a ready-made linear table solution for the task, like this. Hepco also do a much cheaper linear rail "system" which utilises a quality bearing/wheel used in standard electrical Unistrut.
Scrit
The 100mm diameter Whitehill Euro blocks (also sold by APTC) will run flush if your spindle moulder top piece supports this. The top of this cutter block has a circa 40mm diameter recess around the spindle boring into which either a top locking plate (circular) can be inserted (for spindles like those on some SCM machines which allow a 40mm diameter plate to be held on top of the spindle by means of a pair of countersunk head machine screws. The blocks are also supplied with a chamfer edge "washer" to fit inside this recess. I believe that this is for use on other machines like the Felder (?) which allow the use of a similar chamfer-edged holding plate. Maybe FelderMan can confirm this. BTW the Whitehill tenoning discs also have a recess to allow them to be secured in a similar manner.
Unfortunately the standard BER2 spindle doesn't support this method of holding (as you know) because it uses a threaded portion and a large nut to hold tooling in place, which is pretty much standard spindle moulder practice. However, some aditional digging has revealed that the spindle top piece on the BER2 should be removeable. The machine was advertised by Wadkin as having a replaceable top piece with 3/4in, 1in and extra 1-1/4in diameter top pieces being available from the manufacturer at one time. So look for a big nut at the bottom of the spindle shaft and you might find you can get the top piece out as a whole. Getting a second top piece made would then be fairly straightforward - but I don't know if you could machine the existing one as it's possibly hardened.
As to making-up a table I'd get hold of a copy of the Felder tooling catalogue - they list a cam hold-down and a tenoning plate which might prove of use. The best bearings I can think of for the task are the "plastic" Simplicity bearings from Pacific Bearing (sold through Hepco in the UK). You might even find a ready-made linear table solution for the task, like this. Hepco also do a much cheaper linear rail "system" which utilises a quality bearing/wheel used in standard electrical Unistrut.
Scrit
ProShop
Established Member
Scrit":1g9n626p said:
Someone mention my name
.Your spot on Scrit
If theres any interest I can post some pics later of the very thing,
and also on the tennon plate & eccentric clamp etc.
