Regular Mortice Chisel or Bevel Edged for your Mortices

[ED65]

There is a clear winner on the DT front if you look at old work; it was always pinholes (tails) first.

I didn't intend to ignite the pins-first v. tails-first debate so all I'm going to say to that is Frank Klausz advocated pins first. Ditto Tage Frid.

 

[D_W]

Morticing stool - scroll down. Note vertical chisel hold and BFO mallet!!

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/478

Presumably you watched the video of the Chinese master chopping a mortise? He does build stuff, lots, but it appears that he has learned that opening a school and teaching is more lucrative.

I posted a series of videos from the same fellow a year or two ago and several folks thought it was quaint that he was sitting on a stool and clamping his work by sitting on it. Of course, there's nothing quaint about it. I'm not surprised to see that there was such a thing in old plates.

I don't think a contest in hand work productivity between him and any of the current teaching gurus would last very long.

 

[MarkDennehy]

I'm surprised there has not been more comment on MarkDennehy's important post. First of all it turns out we are all going to die and then - to cap it all - our only consolation seems to be the prospect of Jacob doing a youtube of himself energetically cutting a mortice.

And Custard...

 

[Jacob]

There is a clear winner on the DT front if you look at old work; it was always pinholes (tails) first.

I didn't intend to ignite the pins-first v. tails-first debate so all I'm going to say to that is Frank Klausz advocated pins first. Ditto Tage Frid.

So what?
You shouldn't believe everything you read in books!
If you want to know more about woodwork the very best source of information is woodwork itself. How stuff was actually done by people hard at it, is often a very different world from that of the text book and other media

 

[Jacob]

Morticing stool - scroll down. Note vertical chisel hold and BFO mallet!!

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/478

Presumably you watched the video of the Chinese master chopping a mortise? He does build stuff, lots, but it appears that he has learned that opening a school and teaching is more lucrative.

I posted a series of videos from the same fellow a year or two ago and several folks thought it was quaint that he was sitting on a stool and clamping his work by sitting on it. Of course, there's nothing quaint about it. I'm not surprised to see that there was such a thing in old plates.

I don't think a contest in hand work productivity between him and any of the current teaching gurus would last very long.

No I hadn't seen it.
But I had seen the stool in Ellis and had been shown (by MR FORD :lol: ) how to do it on a saw stool.

 

[woodbrains]

There is a clear winner on the DT front if you look at old work; it was always pinholes (tails) first.

I didn't intend to ignite the pins-first v. tails-first debate so all I'm going to say to that is Frank Klausz advocated pins first. Ditto Tage Frid.

Hello,

It seems to be common to do pins first by European makers. Krenov did pins first, too, taught to him by his teacher, Carl Malmsten. The Swedish cappelagarden continue to teach this way and I'm sure they are not alone. I believe Christian Becsvoort was also taught this way by his German father, but he writes that in a rebellious phase, he started doing them tails first and continued to do so. I suspect if you look at European furniture, then evidence for tails first would be hard to find. It is perfectly possible to do dovetails efficiently either way, as you can chop a mortice with the chisel facing either way. It makes not a jot of difference when you are practiced enough.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

...... I suspect if you look at European furniture, then evidence for tails first would be hard to find. ....

Well you would suspect wrongly. As it happens I have repaired (and scrapped) quite a lot of old furniture and other joinery. I've always looked closely at everything - you never get the chance otherwise!
DT drawer sides almost always done in pairs, freehand, pinholes first. If they were done second then there'd be no chance they would match so closely. I know this - it's not just a suspicion. Could be luck of the draw (er) I suppose and done everywhere else quite differently.
It's pretty obvious really - how else could you speed up the process so easily?

 

[ED65]

There is a clear winner on the DT front if you look at old work; it was always pinholes (tails) first.

I didn't intend to ignite the pins-first v. tails-first debate so all I'm going to say to that is Frank Klausz advocated pins first. Ditto Tage Frid.

So what?
You shouldn't believe everything you read in books!

And on the flip side, you shouldn't believe nothing you read in books!

If you want to know more about woodwork the very best source of information is woodwork itself.

This was precisely my point in the post that started this latest derailment of yours! Well missed.

How stuff was actually done by people hard at it, is often a very different world from that of the text book and other media

First, did you just sorta imply that Klausz and Frid weren't hard at it? Nah, you couldn't have.

Moving swiftly on, a much more important point. You're broadly assuming here that books or other texts don't accurately describe what is being done by people hard at it. Regardless of who is doing the writing that's a patently false assumption.

The simple fact is that many a book, article and web page IS written by somebody who is either in the middle of being hard at it professionally or is at the end of a lifetime of being hard at it. So you can't just sweep aside what they say just because it inconveniently disagrees with your views.

End of.

 

[woodbrains]

...... I suspect if you look at European furniture, then evidence for tails first would be hard to find. ....

Well you would suspect wrongly. As it happens I have repaired (and scrapped) quite a lot of old furniture and other joinery. I've always looked closely at everything - you never get the chance otherwise!
DT drawer sides almost always done in pairs, freehand, pinholes first. If they were done second then there'd be no chance they would match so closely. I know this - it's not just a suspicion. Could be luck of the draw (er) I suppose and done everywhere else quite differently.
It's pretty obvious really - how else could you speed up the process so easily?

Hello,

Which bit of European are you misunderstanding, you know full well I'm excepting British stuff?

Tage Frid was an extremely hard worker, who made no concessions to faffing about. It is well noted by his students.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

...... I suspect if you look at European furniture, then evidence for tails first would be hard to find. ....

Well you would suspect wrongly. As it happens I have repaired (and scrapped) quite a lot of old furniture and other joinery. I've always looked closely at everything - you never get the chance otherwise!
DT drawer sides almost always done in pairs, freehand, pinholes first. If they were done second then there'd be no chance they would match so closely. I know this - it's not just a suspicion. Could be luck of the draw (er) I suppose and done everywhere else quite differently.
It's pretty obvious really - how else could you speed up the process so easily?

Hello,

Which bit of European are you misunderstanding, you know full well I'm excepting British stuff?

Oh I thought we were Europeans too!

Tage Frid was an extremely hard worker, who made no concessions to faffing about. It is well noted by his students.

Mike.

I'm more interested in Mr Anon who made the bulk of stuff around us.
I don't have this fixation on gurus, least of all Krenov :roll: . I've got a Tage Frid book but can't say it made any particular impression - just more of the same old stuff.

 

[John15]

This thread has wandered too far from my original post so I suggest the Mods shut it down. Many thanks to those who gave helpful comments to my question.

John

 

[G S Haydon]

Morticing stool - scroll down. Note vertical chisel hold and BFO mallet!!

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/478

Presumably you watched the video of the Chinese master chopping a mortise? He does build stuff, lots, but it appears that he has learned that opening a school and teaching is more lucrative.

I posted a series of videos from the same fellow a year or two ago and several folks thought it was quaint that he was sitting on a stool and clamping his work by sitting on it. Of course, there's nothing quaint about it. I'm not surprised to see that there was such a thing in old plates.

I don't think a contest in hand work productivity between him and any of the current teaching gurus would last very long.

A sawing horse or stool is very helpful. Cutting any wood larger than 4" x 1" is easier, morticing larger items is a good example too. A great deal of woodworking projects have components that can be large and or wide and heavy and worked more easily on a sawhorse. If you have a pair of sawhorses and an old fire door or planks you can have a nice set up for lots of tasks.

 

[MikeG.]

I never use a handsaw at the bench. I always use a saw horse (and my knee as a hold-down). To see Paul Sellers ripping stuff in his vice just seems wrong to me.

 

[bugbear]

A sawing horse or stool is very helpful. Cutting any wood larger than 4" x 1" is easier, morticing larger items is a good example too. A great deal of woodworking projects have components that can be large and or wide and heavy and worked more easily on a sawhorse. If you have a pair of sawhorses and an old fire door or planks you can have a nice set up for lots of tasks.

Interestingly, there's pretty much no such thing as a Japanese "workbench". It's all trestles (AKA sawhorses) and planing beams.

BugBear

 

[Peter Sefton]

I never use a handsaw at the bench. I always use a saw horse (and my knee as a hold-down). To see Paul Sellers ripping stuff in his vice just seems wrong to me.

Easier to cut on a saw horse, easier to film in a vice :wink:

Just my thoughts, Peter

 

[Phil Pascoe]

This thread has wandered too far from my original post so I suggest the Mods shut it down. Many thanks to those who gave helpful comments to my question.
John

Don't fret. Sometimes more information and help comes from off tack threads than on tack ones.

 

[MarkDennehy]

Nothing wrong with fretting, it's a nice quiet fast way to get most of the waste out of the dovetails...

/legs it

 

[Jacob]

Is this turning into a fret-sawing thread? :roll:

 

[bugbear]

Nothing wrong with fretting, it's a nice quiet fast way to get most of the waste out of the dovetails...

/legs it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcYppAs6ZdI

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Nothing wrong with fretting, it's a nice quiet fast way to get most of the waste out of the dovetails...

/legs it

Cutting pin holes I find it quicker and easier to do three saw cuts instead of two. The first one is down the middle, the next two the angled sides. It's very quick and you don't have to change tools. Then the waste is easy to remove and the hole cleaned up with a small chisel. No need for a fret saw.
I guess this is how it would have been done in the good old days as it's easier and quicker, but I've never seen any evidence such as accidental over-cuts.
The trouble with waste is that it's never left lying around as evidence!