New Workshop Doors

[OPJ]

That's a nice haul of chestnut you've got there. Adding braces alone will make a significant difference. There's no harm in also fixing a sheet of ply to the back, though I'm not sure you'll need it unless the joints fail (!!!) or the doors are really heavy. :wink:

I used to make large doors (well, garden gates really, but the construction was similar) from 3" thick timber and we never had any complaints about the doors sagging or anything like that. We used to biscuit joint them in to the rails and add a screw to reinforce it! :shock: Well, that was for "production" work where time is everything and it was a lot quicker than having to cut and notch them in to the rails.

I used to drive a forklift just like that Cat as well. It was the best one we had, even though it was black from age and neglect, would break down frequently and churned out thick, black smoke. The fuel gauge didn't work either but, it would lift a heck of a lot more than the modern forklifts that did work (...well, not all the time!).

 

[brianhabby]

Thanks for the comments.

Ed,
No I didn't have a forklift at the other end, just my grandson. He's only 12 and found them a bit heavy, in fact he had 'em all off loaded before I'd finished me cuppa :lol:

Simon,
That Volvo has taken a few loads that I wouln't get in anything else, I can tell you. Cost me 450 notes about 5 years ago and has yet to let me down, built like the proverbial brick whatsit...!

Tom,
There was just enough room to get the forks out & Dave was very careful not to scratch my carefully polished pride 'n joy Only one passenger (in the front seat) but the back of the car is a mobile shed (wheelyshed).

Olly,
I think these doors will be quite heavy by the time they're finished but I hope my joints don't fail, I plan to put wedges in the M&T joints and may dowel them as well. I never actually thought about the ply helping the joints but I suppose it will. I'm planning to put a rebate in the frame to accept the ply and then the cladding, should be strong enough I think.

That Cat in the photo is as old as the hills but it doesn't half lift some wood. This guy's got tons of the stuff and he has to move it about with that machine to get at the stuff at the back or that's buried.

regards

Brian

 

[OPJ]

If you're going rebate the inside edge of the frame, Brian, don't forget that your middle rails will need to be thinner by the thickness of the ply...! :shock: :wink:

This will probably also mean that you'll need to use bare-faced tenons (one shoulder) on the mid rails.

 

[brianhabby]

Thanks for that Olly, I've not got that far yet of course I reckon it'll be a couple of weeks before I'm cutting the joints but I guess it's good to start to think about it now.

What I had in mind was cutting a rebate around each aperture that is deep enough for both the ply and the T&G. After filling the void with the ply I would then put the T&G on top of the ply.

I've tried to illustrate what I have in mind with this:

BTW this is my very first drawing with Sketchup

Olly, does my idea make sense. Obviously I want to get this right.

regards

Brian

 

[OPJ]

How thick is the timber you've bought, 2"?

If you were to cut a rebate that was deep enough for both the ply and T&G (18 + 18 = 36mm); 45 - 36mm = only 9mm on the other side side of the door, which isn't gonna be very strong at all... :?

Sorry, what I thought you had in mind was to only rebate the T&G boards in to the front face of the doors. My other thought was that you were intending to screw some ply directly on to the back face of the doors (not rebated), and you could insulate between the boards and ply...?

I really don't think you'll need the ply with those braces and your choice of timber. It would only really be necessary to keep the insulation in place on the inside; even then, you could get away with using hardboard and keep the weight down.

 

[brianhabby]

Interesting comments Olly, I honestly never thought about doing it the way you suggested - but I may now

I have some ply that is about 9-10mm so with the 18mm for the T&G that shouldn't be too deep I don't think. Do you really think I don't need the plywood in the rebate because your idea of insulation is really beginning to appeal to me?

I suppose if the ply was fastened securely to the inside of the frame it's still going to give some support anyway.

regards

Brian

 

[dexter]

Hi Brian,
Looking at your original photo`s, those door`s would not have sagged if they had been braced. That being the case I would suggest that you construct the new door`s to the same design as the original`s with bare faced tenon's on the middle and bottom rails. The T&G boards then fit into a rebate in the top rail and stile`s and run through to the bottom of the door. This will allow any water to run straight off the door as opposed to the eventuality of it soaking into the rebate and joints of the bottom rail if you make that the same thickness as the top rail and stile`s.
If made this way and braced as you have shown on the sketchup design I don`t really see any need for the plywood.
How old are the door`s that are on at the moment? If you build them to a slightly better design,(braces) and maintain them well, then you should get their age and a good few more years out of them.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
Dex

 

[OPJ]

Sorry Brian, I'm not sure how I missed your reply...

But, it seems dexter's covered pretty much everything I would've said! You don't really need the ply so, don't bother trying to cut rebates for it - this'll give you the optimum room for insulation; 1" slabs to fill a 27mm gap.

You don't need anything heaver than 3mm hardboard to hold it in place, which can simply be screwed straight on to the backs of the doors. If you're using Kingspan or similar, you cut it for a tight fit anyway, so it should hold on it's own. :wink:

One other thing you may like to consider is raising your bottom rail up off the ends of the stiles. This will allow you to get a 'twin tenon' joint instead of just a haunched M&T, which would help reduce any twisting of such a large rail and you could dowel it in two places. 1" would be enough or, to play it safe, you could make it 2" in case you like really tight joints and are worried about splitting the sitles...!! :wink: It also means you less likely to damage the bottom rail this way - if something does happen, it's much easier (and usually cheaper) to replace the T&G boards.

 

[brianhabby]

Dex & Olly,

Thanks for your interesting and very useful comments, you have both given me much to think about. I obviously need to re-think my plans somewhat before I go any further.

Back to Sketchup me thinks

regards

Brian

 

[brianhabby]

Well it's been a while, I thought it time I resurrected this thread.

This has been one of those jobs that I just haven't been able to get on with for one reason or another, Usually other things taking precedence. So I've recently told all my friends and family that nothing gets done until my doors are finished - doesn't stop 'em asking though

I probably haven't taken anywhere near as many photos as I should have done, but here is what I have done.

Some time ago I cut all the wood to size and planed it up and finished up with this:

Handling those large pieces on the jointer was tricky so I fixed up a featherboard to hold the stock firmly against the fence:

I've recently been cutting the joints for the M&T doors. They will be wedged with a dowel for good measure.

The mortices were first drilled out on the drill press and then finished by hand

For the tenons I used a tenon jig design courtesy of Mr Maskery, here's my version:

For anyone thinking about cutting large tenons, I can highly recommend Steve's jig. As long as you take the time to make sure the jig is square, you will get perfect tenons every time. Things like haunches etc just need finishing of by hand.

After cutting all the mortice & tenon joints and some time fine tuning them I was ready for the first dry fit, which I did today.

The diagonal clamp is because it was out of square by about 1/16th of an inch, which I didn't think was too bad at all for such a large project. While it was clamped up dry it was time to cut the braces. Cutting them at this stage was necessary in order to get a nice tight fit. I will fasten them in place with biscuits.

In this next photo, the braces have been cut and are just held in place with no support.

I'll try to keep the thread up to date until I'm finished.

regards

Brian

 

[OPJ]

Great to see this one resurrected, Brian! ;-)

Really like the tenon jig. Looks like you've even managed to improve Steve's jig by fitting a larger 18mm MDF base to the router (...well, I don't recall seeing that on Steve's original design).

Hopefully, you'll now be able to get the doors assembled and hung in time for Christmas.

 

[brianhabby]

I think Christmas is a bit optimistic, still got a fair bit to do and only one day left (unfortunately I have to go earn a crust during the week )

The last picture just shows one of the doors (the simplest one of the two) dry fitted. I have to now dismantle it and cut the rebates for the cladding and plywood.

The other door will have the judas gate within it so is a bit more complex. I haven't started on the judas gate yet.

I'm pretty sure Steve had a similar base on his router, at least on the DVD version I've got.

regards

Brian

 

[Qwibble]

I plan to replace my up 'n over garage door when time permits, and am watching your project with interest. Looks good so far : )

Keep posting the pics

Q

 

[joiner_sim]

Getting there finally! I like that tennon jig you've got there, something I'll definatley keep in my for myself when the time comes for the need of one.

 

[brianhabby]

Well a bit more progress, got the other door together (dry).

I've managed to finish cutting the rebates today, just need to fine tune the corners when the doors are assembled.

Next job is cutting dowels & wedges and then (I think) final assembly. Not sure which glue to use as it takes a while to put together and I don't want the glue drying on me before it's clamped up.

regards

Brian

 

[joiner_sim]

Whenever I've made gates in the past, I've used Everbuild's Resintite, basically cascamite http://www.everbuild.co.uk/products/9,Adhesives/11,Wood Adhesives/1

If using it in the winter it can last for ages before going off, if using in the summer you need a very thin watery mix to stand a chance of it not going off too quick. The heat will make it go off quicker, but I have always found if I mixed up enough to do just one door/ gate it would not go off during the assembly, unless it's been really hot and the doors been a really complicated raised & fielded panelled one, then I have had problems..... but only when its been extremely hot!

 

[brianhabby]

Well, I've got the doors assembled and glued up. I decided on the Titebond II Extend glue in the end, it stayed open long enough to put things together.

I made the judas gate today but had a couple of hicups, really through my own stupidity

The first problem I encountered was the wood for the stiles being a couple of inches too short. I have no idea how I managed to end up with short pieces as I normally allow plenty of extra length. It meant that I had to change from having the tenons in the rails and mortices in the stiles to the other way round. I also had to make stub tenons so I could regain the extra couple of inches.

It means the end grain of the rails will be visible at the top and bottom but I can live with this, I don't think there will be any strength issues (unless anyone knows differently). Too late now anyway.

If it had been a door in a house I would probably have had to re-mill some fresh timber and do the job correctly.

The other really stupid thing I did was put the brace for the judas gate on the wrong corners. It should go from the bottom of the hinge side to the top of the lock side but I got it wrong way round and only realised about half an hour after I'd glued it up. I'll now have to add another brace going the correct way and half lap it over the first one.

Good job I'm doing this for myself.

regards

Brian

 

[tisdai]

Been following this with intrest, your doing a good job thier Brian. By the way you are not the 1st and you surely won't be the last 1 to make a mistake,,

Cheers

Dave

 

[Steve Maskery]

Nice job, Brian, I look forward to seeing the end result.
And thanks for the plug, much appreciated.
Cheers
Steve

 

[joiner_sim]

Ooops! The brace mistake is definatley not a first! When I have got the braces the wrong way around, I have just smacked it out repaired any damage and put a new brace in the right way around! Luckily that job was being painted.