Mortice chisels

[Racers]

Jacob, how do you get the chisel out if you don't clamp the wood? or do you just have lumps of wood with lots chisels stuck in them?

Pete

 

[swagman]

I doubt there would be many, if any professional joinery shops that are still relying on the traditional mortise chisel to remove most of the waste. Time is money, and with the ever rising cost in hourly rates, and if you cant control your costs via an ever increasing use of specialized machinery, its difficult to remain competitive against those that are offering the same service, but have adapted to more modern techniques. All forms of woodwork trades, from the Carpenter and Joiner through to the Cabinet Maker, have seen a huge transition over the last 30yrs away from traditional techniques applied within construction. Rarely will you come across a new home that hasn't been built using prefab roof trusses and wall framing. Most kitchen cabinets are now contracted out to specialized manufacturers that then computer cut each of the components to exacting dimensions. The cabinet Makers role is to then fine tune the fit those cabinets and complete the assembly.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, how do you get the chisel out if you don't clamp the wood? or do you just have lumps of wood with lots chisels stuck in them?

Pete

After each hit you waggle it slightly and it comes lose (thanks to the taper etc) but if not you just hold down or tap the workpiece with the mallet conveniently located in your other hand. Clamping just slows things down and the clamp may mark the sides.
The mortice stool / saw horse idea - you hold it down with your bum - quick release and no risk of marks and a very efficient ergonomic working position.
It's a bit like rip-sawing - fast and furious - there would be a lot of them to do so slowly and carefully wouldn't do at all.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

After each hit you waggle it slightly

Jacob, I prefer the wiggle rather than the waggle

I do the same. Not much movement is required.

The board is clamped over the leg of the bench. I have a really simple and effective method that secures the board and releases it in a second. It makes the process of chopping mortices quite efficient. I'll take a photo on the weekend and post it here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Racers]

Jacob, how do you get the chisel out if you don't clamp the wood? or do you just have lumps of wood with lots chisels stuck in them?

Pete

After each hit you waggle it slightly and it comes lose (thanks to the taper etc) but if not you just hold down or tap the workpiece with the mallet conveniently located in your other hand. Clamping just slows things down and the clamp may mark the sides.
The mortice stool / saw horse idea - you hold it down with your bum - quick release and no risk of marks and a very efficient ergonomic working position.
It's a bit like rip-sawing - fast and furious - there would be a lot of them to do so slowly and carefully wouldn't do at all.

How the hell does clamping slow things down? the wood is fixed so no need to hold it down with the mallet in your other hand, possibly marking it and getting bits underneath it it lifts off the workbench, which will mark the underside, don't tell me this has never happened to you.
A clamp and a pad will make things much easer and quicker.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, how do you get the chisel out if you don't clamp the wood? or do you just have lumps of wood with lots chisels stuck in them?

Pete

After each hit you waggle it slightly and it comes lose (thanks to the taper etc) but if not you just hold down or tap the workpiece with the mallet conveniently located in your other hand. Clamping just slows things down and the clamp may mark the sides.
The mortice stool / saw horse idea - you hold it down with your bum - quick release and no risk of marks and a very efficient ergonomic working position.
It's a bit like rip-sawing - fast and furious - there would be a lot of them to do so slowly and carefully wouldn't do at all.

How the hell does clamping slow things down? the wood is fixed so no need to hold it down with the mallet in your other hand, possibly marking it and getting bits underneath it it lifts off the workbench, which will mark the underside, don't tell me this has never happened to you.
A clamp and a pad will make things much easer and quicker.

Pete

You can't hold in a bench vice as it will mark the sides as you whack the chisel. It has to sit on a bench i.e. supported underneath. Across bench hooks is good as the chippings fall free and don't get under the workpiece.
So first you have to find the clamp, then you have to apply and turn the screw or whatever way it works, then you have to undo it - then do it again if you are going through. And it gets even more complicated if you try to do several side by side.
Hope that helps.

 

[AndyT]

Gentlemen, I expect you are both right, but are thinking of different examples.

Imagine a small cabinet door stile, probably only 12 - 15 mm thick, 30 - 40 mm wide, 300 mm long. You'd need to clamp it down to stop it falling over.

Then imagine cutting mortices in a five bar gate - it's a different scale entirely. It would make sense to use a low bench/stool and hold the wood down by sitting on it.

Woodwork covers so many different specialist trades. Carpentry is not the same as joinery or cabinet making, but anyone used to one trade will sometimes need to have a go at another. I think this is often the cause of differences of opinion in online discussion.

 

[bugbear]

Either we are conversing at cross-purposes, or we work differently. The only time I "steer" a mortice chisel is when placing it in position at the surface. The chisel is aligned square to the mortice lines, and then struck straight down. I do not seek to steer it on its journey straight down, nor does it need to be steered.

The only chopping direction is straight down. I learned that this is the method advocated by Maynard. No attempt is made to lever out waste. The waste is being forced into the (drilled) hole on the right (obscured in the photo).

I think you're misremembering Derek; Maynard's technique has the bevel the other way round.

Here's Jeff Gorman with the original article, and some experiements;

http://www.amgron.clara.net/maynard40.html

Jeff's pages on the topic followed a discussion I started on OLDTOOLS in 2001 (!!)

http://swingleydev.com/ot/get/99408/thread/#99408

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

The mortice stool / saw horse idea - you hold it down with your bum - quick release and no risk of marks and a very efficient ergonomic working position.

A traditional mortise stool has two vertical posts sticking up; the workpiece is held between these, secured by a wedge.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Gentlemen, I expect you are both right, but are thinking of different examples.

Imagine a small cabinet door stile, probably only 12 - 15 mm thick, 30 - 40 mm wide, 300 mm long. You'd need to clamp it down to stop it falling over.

Then imagine cutting mortices in a five bar gate - it's a different scale entirely. It would make sense to use a low bench/stool and hold the wood down by sitting on it.

Woodwork covers so many different specialist trades. Carpentry is not the same as joinery or cabinet making, but anyone used to one trade will sometimes need to have a go at another. I think this is often the cause of differences of opinion in online discussion.

Agreed.

When the workpiece is big enough it's held in place by inertia and gravity. Timber framers don't use many clamps!

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Gentlemen, I expect you are both right, but are thinking of different examples.

Imagine a small cabinet door stile, probably only 12 - 15 mm thick, 30 - 40 mm wide, 300 mm long. You'd need to clamp it down to stop it falling over.

Then imagine cutting mortices in a five bar gate - it's a different scale entirely. It would make sense to use a low bench/stool and hold the wood down by sitting on it.

Woodwork covers so many different specialist trades. Carpentry is not the same as joinery or cabinet making, but anyone used to one trade will sometimes need to have a go at another. I think this is often the cause of differences of opinion in online discussion.

Yes if it's narrow enough to be unstable.

 

[Jacob]

...

I think you're misremembering Derek; Maynard's technique has the bevel the other way round.....

Makes no difference which way round. I used to start in the middle but with the face facing the far end and then advance it face forwards for each cut, up close to the end then turn it and bring it face forwards to near the near end.
Similar to digging a trench - you get down the hole in stages and then advance by attacking the vertical face with a pick before shovelling off the floor

 

[Jacob]

Gentlemen, I expect you are both right, but are thinking of different examples.

Imagine a small cabinet door stile, probably only 12 - 15 mm thick, 30 - 40 mm wide, 300 mm long. You'd need to clamp it down to stop it falling over.

Then imagine cutting mortices in a five bar gate - it's a different scale entirely. It would make sense to use a low bench/stool and hold the wood down by sitting on it.

Woodwork covers so many different specialist trades. Carpentry is not the same as joinery or cabinet making, but anyone used to one trade will sometimes need to have a go at another. I think this is often the cause of differences of opinion in online discussion.

Agreed.

When the workpiece is big enough it's held in place by inertia and gravity. Timber framers don't use many clamps!

BugBear

It's not the size it's the stability. If you cut a 1/4" mortice in a 1" square workpiece you don't need to clamp it - but you might if it was 1"x4"
Either way it needs to be on a firm surface and not in a vice, or you might blow out the far side.

 

[Trafalgar]

Ian Kirby, Central V, rectangular chisel. Article online somewhere but he's been espousing this for decades. That's pretty much how I do mine. His pictorials with accompanying published and professionally edited narrative is far better than I could come up with on a home brew basis.

The only thing I disagree with is his recommendation to hit the chisel as hard as you can, for reasons mentioned in earlier posts. If you do this using the central v method, once you're to depth with the "V", you'd blow a blind mortise out the opposite side as you can see from the Sellers video, even given allowances for the glass, that it's easy to remove a SECTION OF MATERIAL (not dog kibble) all the way from top to planned depth in a few well controlled chisel blows. This is the key -- the material comes out in large sections, not as confetti. The chisel is CUTTING and not performing the same function as a stump grinder -- just chipping away until it's all gone. Edges last much longer as well.

In a very old FW article from its black and white days he can be seen using an OBM on what looks like a furniture part. In a later article for Woodworker's Journal he's using a Marples Blue Chip sash mortiser. This is the better article in my opinion -- more photos and tightly written narrative that described the layered method and the central v method (he prefers the latter).

Have a great day y'all.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Either we are conversing at cross-purposes, or we work differently. The only time I "steer" a mortice chisel is when placing it in position at the surface. The chisel is aligned square to the mortice lines, and then struck straight down. I do not seek to steer it on its journey straight down, nor does it need to be steered.

The only chopping direction is straight down. I learned that this is the method advocated by Maynard. No attempt is made to lever out waste. The waste is being forced into the (drilled) hole on the right (obscured in the photo).

I think you're misremembering Derek; Maynard's technique has the bevel the other way round.

Here's Jeff Gorman with the original article, and some experiements;

http://www.amgron.clara.net/maynard40.html

Jeff's pages on the topic followed a discussion I started on OLDTOOLS in 2001 (!!)

http://swingleydev.com/ot/get/99408/thread/#99408

BugBear

Well BB, then I must do it better than Maynard!

Jacob, you asked what the purpose of the drilled hole was. It is to create a space for waste to move into.

Here is a relevant photo from Jeff's web page ..

The chisel back is vertical, and the bevel forces the waste towards the hole. The next chop of the chisel forces the waste into the gap of the previous chop. And so on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

..
Jacob, you asked what the purpose of the drilled hole was. It is to create a space for waste to move into.

Here is a relevant photo from Jeff's web page ..

The chisel back is vertical, and the bevel forces the waste towards the hole. The next chop of the chisel forces the waste into the gap of the previous chop. And so on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thats how I do it. Don't need a starter hole though. Each slice goes deeper than the one before so its a lot faster than you expect.

 

[Racers]

With a starter hole you can go to full depth from the first chop, much faster than you expect.

Pete

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Correct Pete ... well close to full length.

Jacob, waste has to go somewhere ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

Correct Pete ... well close to full length.

Jacob, waste has to go somewhere ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

Try it without a starter hole and you will see where the waste goes.

 

[Jacob]

With a starter hole you can go to full depth from the first chop, much faster than you expect.

Pete

But you've got to drill a hole. By hand (brace and bit) it'd be much quicker just to chisel. Probably same by machine by the time you've set it up etc. Might as well get a morticer.