more new planes hitting the market

[GazPal]

rubbish depth adjustment yolks and other parts failures seem to be a fact of modern life and aren't exclusive to Far Eastern sourced tools. If customer care is up to snuff they'll provide fresh replacements, as well as demand improvements.

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Keep the cost of good tools within reasonable reach of potential craftsmen/women and enthusiasm for the crafts can only grow and improve through increased involvement.

Place the cost of good tools beyond reasonable reach of the everyday man, woman or young enthusiast and their use will become elitist and drive folk away from involvement in the crafts. I genuinely feel this is the area in which the likes of Lie Nielsen, LV, Veritas, et al risk falling, because all too many enthusiasts can only ever dream of owning and using such tools while making do with lower quality equipment, or thinking they can't improve upon their current tool performance by learning a few basics before trying to move onto more advanced builds where accuracy and background knowledge lessen mistakes.

I'm not a fan of the general quality of Stanley/Record, etc. current lineup's, but - harkening back to the 70's - their tools used to take some beating and still do if the performance of my own tools is anything to go by. If they'd return to basics and begin getting things right once again i.e. tune-up planes during QC before releasing them for retail there'd be no real need for, or such increased enthusiasm for boutique tools who's designs are heavily rooted in/copied from originals. Such high prices are often gauged upon whatever such a niche market can bear. Since my apprentice years I'd been out of the carpentry tool buying market (I used to invest in at least one tool each week during my apprenticeship) for quite a few years apart from buying new plane blades, the odd sharpening stone, etc., but my youngest son having recently begun his apprenticeship brought to light how low general tool quality (Sloppy castings, pre-sales set-up's, longevity, etc.) has slipped over the past 30+ years.

Plastics knobs and handles on planes for heaven sake!??????

If Far Eastern makers can reproduce and improve upon the overall quality for less than western makers I'm all for investing in their products, but sincerely wish the likes of Stanley, Record and co. would pull their socks up.

One aside is the fact that once Far Eastern economies begin approaching those of the west, their production costs will increase and drive up prices.

 

[Vann]

I'm not a fan of the general quality of Stanley/Record, etc. current lineup's, but - harkening back to the 70's - their tools used to take some beating and still do if the performance of my own tools is anything to go by.

I think you need to hark back yet another decade. My 1973 Stanley No.4 (the only plane I owned for nearly thirty years) is rubbish, so their quality control had already slipped by then, although I accept that a percentage of good ones were still coming through at that time.

One aside is the fact that once Far Eastern economies begin approaching those of the west, their production costs will increase and drive up prices.

I agree. unfortunately it's the damage they will do to our own industries, to the environment, and to the supply of the earths resources, getting there, is what worries me. I also have issues trading with countries with poor human rights - but that's just me.

rubbish depth adjustment yolks and other parts failures seem to be a fact of modern life and aren't exclusive to Far Eastern sourced tools.

Yes I believe Clifton yokes are made of dodgy material too. I've not heard of any failing in use, but a few people who have tried to silver-solder onto them have found the yokes have a low melting temperature.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[GazPal]

Yes I believe Clifton yokes are made of dodgy material too. I've not heard of any failing in use, but a few people who have tried to silver-solder onto them have found the yokes have a low melting temperature.

Cheers, Vann.

Low melt temps could indicate the use of cheaply cast pot metal parts and it's a shame many makers don't use far better materials for such important elements. Although if they still need to onsider wear and tear between mating parts and it's cheaper to replace a softer alloy yolk than a machined brass adjuster.

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In terms of harking back another decade or so for better build qualities, I agree, but was speaking of my own experience with the Record planes I'd so often found to be better made than those by Stanley. Perhaps some of my planes were residual stock from the 60's, but they took little - no setting up and are still going strong and holding true with minimal maintenance.

 

[studders]

unfortunately it's the damage they will do to our own industries, to the environment, and to the supply of the earths resources, getting there, is what worries me. I also have issues trading with countries with poor human rights - but that's just me.

Cheers, Vann.

Tried to resist but, it was futile. :lol:

You're not actually serious about the above are you Vann?
If you are then, all I can say is the West has little moral ground left to stand on when it comes to any of the above, or for that matter the exploitation of anothers ideas/hard work/investment.

 

[Vann]

Tried to resist but, it was futile. :lol:

Resistance is futile - you know that :lol:

You're not actually serious about the above are you Vann?
If you are then, all I can say is the West has little moral ground left to stand on when it comes to any of the above, or for that matter the exploitation of anothers ideas/hard work/investment.

Unfortunately I am.

I know this is off-topic. Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning the right of the Far East (or 'near west' if you live in NZ) to have the same living standards as us. I'm more questioning the use of the earths resources to make cheap and shoddy goods - often in enviromentally unfriendly factories (i.e. more evironmentally friendly than ours) in ever increasing quantities. The natural resoures required to make a quality product (say a TV - or plane) that lasts years would be only a bare fraction higher than that required to make a rubbish product that has to be thrown away in a year or two. And we in the "West" are encouraging this wasteful production, in order to save a buck or two. So yes, West has little moral ground left. That doesn't mean I have to willingly go along with it.
Resistance* IS futile - but trying makes me feel a little better. :roll:

Cheers, Vann.

*resistance to the tidal wave of cheap (and often rubbish) eastern products.

 

[matthewwh]

Yes I believe Clifton yokes are made of dodgy material too. I've not heard of any failing in use, but a few people who have tried to silver-solder onto them have found the yokes have a low melting temperature.

Hi Vann,

Clifton intentionally use yokes that will fail before anything more expensive and difficult to replace fails. In normal use they should last a lifetime but if a customer does manage to over-tension the lever cap and break one they supply a free replacement and explain how to avoid it happening again.

 

[Vann]

Clifton intentionally use yokes that will fail before anything more expensive and difficult to replace fails. In normal use they should last a lifetime but if a customer does manage to over-tension the lever cap and break one they supply a free replacement and explain how to avoid it happening again.

Thanks Matthew. That makes sense.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[studders]

Resistance is futile - you know that :lol:

Cheers, Vann.

Well, one likes to make the Token effort. :lol:

I think I've got where you were coming from now and, I agree.
As Nations we cannot condemn them, given our own past and, in some cases our present 'Practices' , as individuals we can.

 

[warrenr]

Vann

We have exported our dirty industries to the Far East and China in particular. We have cleaner environments as a result and they now have much worse environental conditions. This is like putting your garbage in your neighbour's garden and criticising your neighbour for the state of his garden.

I have spent the past four years as an environmental water engineer working to help improve the environmental compliance in China in the steel sector. China is building huge new highly efficient and potentially very clean steel mills. At the same time they are abandoning old mills in city centres often built by the Americans and Europeans.

Increasing the biggest plants are located near the coast and use desalinated seawater. Some plants produce some of the most advanced steels in the world and use less water per ton of steel produced than anywhere else. If you want to criticise anyone look across the Atlantic and you can see why they haven't signed any protocols.

Not all is good or healthy in China but their progress, commitment and leadership is truly remarkable. The West especially the BBC love to knock it but one of the World's great step forward is potentially taking place with people being taken out of extreme poverty by the 100's of millions not because of oil or other natural resources; but their own very hard work and ingenuity.

Everyone I meet in my travels in this part of the World is in awe of the progress and what has been happening; by contrast in the West :twisted: The hypocrisy of the West and particular its media is really sad.

Richard

 

[jimi43]

We can't blame the Far East at all...we created the industry, the market and are now the prime consumers.

Jim

 

[studders]

We can't blame the Far East at all....

Jim

Well, we sorta can really, as individuals.
Even though they are just doing the same thing the West has/had been doing for a very long time, only cheaper else we'd be doing it, they are still exploiting a Market for profit, even if 'we' created/are the Market.
Vanns point, as I understand it, is that they are using vast resources and creating a lot of pollution in order to mass produce tat.
I'm aware it takes two to Tango, I'm also of the opinion that having a demand doesn't make satisfying that demand right.
It's about time we all took some responsibility for what we are doing to the Planet, including them across the Atlantic who 'appear' only to be bothered by what effects them.

 

[warrenr]

IMHO the only way to conserve is to tax.

The Danes tax water, electricity and gas like petrol so that tax is around 60% of the price. It makes it very worthwhile to reduce energy and conserve resources. Importantly it encourages companies to innovate to help conserve or use alternative renewable sources.

Back to the orginal point, we as the market buy what we want be it tat or high quality; the manufacturers produce what we want. Japan started by copying badly and cheaply and now produces some of the finest engineering kit.

China uses around 30% of the energy and resources per head that UK or the USA and yet it produces 30% of the goods that the West consumes. Get this right the polluter is you and me not the Chinese people.

Richard

 

[jimi43]

Well, we sorta can really, as individuals.
Even though they are just doing the same thing the West has/had been doing for a very long time, only cheaper else we'd be doing it, they are still exploiting a Market for profit, even if 'we' created/are the Market.

Poppies are beautiful red flowers that grow all over the Far East and would be just flowers were it not for the drugs market. It is the market that drives the demand that drives the supply that drives the greed that drives the pollution.

To put a little perspective on this overly negative view...a lot of cities in China are producing goods for export in an environmentally managed way. I saw a programme where the factories are so advanced they produce virtually no pollution. And...as Matt has proven...and the Japanese and Koreans proved before....they are starting to engineer quality...which matches most domestic markets.

China is a huge force that we either work with or oppose at our peril and taxing them out is not going to be the answer because of this. We must work in a mutually beneficial way with emerging nations...only then can the spaceship we ride upon survive into the future.

Jim

 

[Trizza]

Another followup: I was able to source a replacement yoke via Matthew - what a champ. Always a pleasure to deal with I also ordered a second iron so I can have two with different cambers, and a 2" wide iron and breaker for a bargain basement plane I've been attempting to fettle into nice condition.

After replacing the yoke the QS No 6 performs brilliantly. I squared up some maple with it as a test and it was great

I studied the old yoke closely after I had it out of the plane, and there is quite clealy a small void in the casting, roughly 1mm in diameter:

 

[Tim Nott]

For those of you whose German is a little rusty (unlike the planes) here's the English link
http://www.fine-tools.com/eputz4.htm