more new planes hitting the market

[ali27]

The body and frog have a durable black powder coat finish on all non ground faces.

Oops, I thought it was green,lol.

Ali

 

[bugbear]

Another thing is that I would like to see some improvements
for the bedrock design like a adjustable mouth and maybe
a norris adjuster with very little backlash.

??

The Bedrock design already has an adjustable mouth!

BugBear

 

[Karl]

LV, I wrote.

You are right. I misread. It reflects my sensitivity to these products. I struggle to come to terms with the way that so many just accept a blatant infringement of rights. Obviously I am out of step with the forum in this regard.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Perhaps this story may shed some light by way of analogy without the depth of feeling which the LN name invokes.

Mecanno is a highly collectable item. A full set of Mecanno (a Set 10) came in a 4 or 5 drawer wooden box. Very simple item - easily replicated by the dedicated woodworker.

Now original boxes fetch silly money, so it was inevitable that somebody would start to make replica's and flog them on e-bay. They fetched good money too - regularly over £300 just for the box. As soon as the auction ended, this guy listed another immediately, so he had obviously built them in batches and was probably making a tidy profit on it from his small workshop, topping up his pension I suspect.

My dad is a collector of Mecanno, and suggested that I should look into doing the same as this guy. I worked out the costings and decided that it would be a go-er, but didn't bother with it in the end. Why? Because it would have diluted the market for both of us and I wasn't sure that I could still make it an earner at a reduced price. However, if I was able to produce it cheaper I would have done it, knowing that I would still turn a good profit and undercut the other guy.

Would this other guy have had a right to complain had I started doing the same as him? Copy an original Mecanno design.

I know where I would have told him to go.

Cheers

Karl

 

[ali27]

Another thing is that I would like to see some improvements
for the bedrock design like a adjustable mouth and maybe
a norris adjuster with very little backlash.

??

The Bedrock design already has an adjustable mouth!

BugBear

Hi Bugbear,

I mean without changing the position of the frog.

Ali

 

[ali27]

LV, I wrote.

You are right. I misread. It reflects my sensitivity to these products. I struggle to come to terms with the way that so many just accept a blatant infringement of rights. Obviously I am out of step with the forum in this regard.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Perhaps this story may shed some light by way of analogy without the depth of feeling which the LN name invokes.

Mecanno is a highly collectable item. A full set of Mecanno (a Set 10) came in a 4 or 5 drawer wooden box. Very simple item - easily replicated by the dedicated woodworker.

Now original boxes fetch silly money, so it was inevitable that somebody would start to make replica's and flog them on e-bay. They fetched good money too - regularly over £300 just for the box. As soon as the auction ended, this guy listed another immediately, so he had obviously built them in batches and was probably making a tidy profit on it from his small workshop, topping up his pension I suspect.

My dad is a collector of Mecanno, and suggested that I should look into doing the same as this guy. I worked out the costings and decided that it would be a go-er, but didn't bother with it in the end. Why? Because it would have diluted the market for both of us and I wasn't sure that I could still make it an earner at a reduced price. However, if I was able to produce it cheaper I would have done it, knowing that I would still turn a good profit and undercut the other guy.

Would this other guy have had a right to complain had I started doing the same as him? Copy an original Mecanno design.

I know where I would have told him to go.

Cheers

Karl

Your story makes perfect sense Karl.

Ali

 

[bugbear]

Another thing is that I would like to see some improvements
for the bedrock design like a adjustable mouth and maybe
a norris adjuster with very little backlash.

??

The Bedrock design already has an adjustable mouth!

BugBear

Hi Bugbear,

I mean without changing the position of the frog.

Ali

Oh.

OK.

But (out of interest) why would you consider this an improvement? It's just a different way of achieving the same result.

Indeed, it involves additional complexity (part count) to achieve the same result.

BugBear

 

[ali27]

Another thing is that I would like to see some improvements
for the bedrock design like a adjustable mouth and maybe
a norris adjuster with very little backlash.

??

The Bedrock design already has an adjustable mouth!

BugBear

Hi Bugbear,

I mean without changing the position of the frog.

Ali

Oh.

OK.

But (out of interest) why would you consider this an improvement? It's just a different way of achieving the same result.

Indeed, it involves additional complexity (part count) to achieve the same result.

BugBear

It´s just easier to do than changing the position of
the frog.

More importantly for me would be a plane with
very little to no backlash. I hate it.

Ali

 

[ali27]

Oh and all parts should be corrosion
resistent.

Ali

 

[Philly]

Now if these were copies of LV planes then it'd be a different matter..

I believe they did - wasn't there an "edge trimming plane" in the original line-up? I heard Lee Valleys lawyers stomped down pretty hard on it.... :twisted:

Philly

 

[Trizza]

Now if these were copies of LV planes then it'd be a different matter..

I believe they did - wasn't there an "edge trimming plane" in the original line-up? I heard Lee Valleys lawyers stomped down pretty hard on it....

And good on em, if they were infringing on LV patents!

 

[Alf]

Now if these were copies of LV planes then it'd be a different matter..

I believe they did - wasn't there an "edge trimming plane" in the original line-up? I heard Lee Valleys lawyers stomped down pretty hard on it.... :twisted:

Philly

Yeah, I recall one amongst the initial line-up of the "Grant" branded ones Tilgear first offered back at the end of '08.

Must admit I'm still in many minds on this issue. I have real problems with giving the Chinese stuff Western brand names, dressing them up to look as L-N/LV as possible, and obviously the infringing of current patents. It's duplicitous, dishonest, and the latter is, um, theft. But "ripping off" the Bedrock design or a low angle block? Everyone and their Aunt Lillian has done it over the years, and will continue to do it. Yeah, LN et al created the market, but would Record planes have ever existed had Stanley not created that market? Heck, would Clifton's plane line exist without LN? The thing that seems to be getting everyone's undergarments in a twist is that gentlemen on the Pacific rim are getting so damn good at it. Well that's the way the world goes; there's not even the comfort of saying that quality will be the winner, because history shows us it often isn't. Everyone just has to make their own call now, and the future will show us the result I suppose.

Honestly, old tools are a lot easier - the moral decisions were all made 50+ years ago...

 

[jimi43]

Honestly, old tools are a lot easier - the moral decisions were all made 50+ years ago...

I might even use that as my sig! Brilliant....

You are a true woodie poet Alf....

We missed ya!

Jim

 

[Paul Chapman]

Where I think LN, LV and Clifton differ from the Chinese manufacturers is that they took the considerable financial risk in investing in the hand-tool market when other manufacturers had given up on it. They are also run by people who are pasionate about hand tools and really understand the needs of woodworkers.

In contrast, I think the Chinese are now just jumping on the bandwagon after LN, LV and Clifton have done all the work and taken all the risk. Nothing wrong with that, it happens all the time. But if I were running LN, LV or Clifton, I'd be feeling a bit p*ss*d off........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[jimi43]

But if I were running LN, LV or Clifton, I'd be feeling a bit p*ss*d off........

If I were one of them I wouldn't waste time with laurels or grapes (sour or not)...I would be doing what the UK and others do great....move on and develop the next range...following the market demand...

In any business....staying still is fatal...evolution and diversification is paramount.

Jim

 

[ali27]

But if I were running LN, LV or Clifton, I'd be feeling a bit p*ss*d off........

If I were one of them I wouldn't waste time with laurels or grapes (sour or not)...I would be doing what the UK and others do great....move on and develop the next range...following the market demand...

In any business....staying still is fatal...evolution and diversification is paramount.

Jim

Amen.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Where I think LN, LV and Clifton differ from the Chinese manufacturers is that they took the considerable financial risk in investing in the hand-tool market

My guess is that it was quite a risk for the Chinese factory too.

On the other hand, there are probably far more hand planes in use in China than in the whole of the Western world. I realise that most will be of Chinese design, but don't underestimate their internal market.

Chinese woodies may be taking to Bailey-pattern planes even as I type, but no Chinese craftsman could afford LV Clifton or LN, so in that market they are irrelevant.

They are also run by people who are passionate about hand tools and really understand the needs of woodworkers.

I don't know about the people running Quangshen, but they seem to understand the market pretty well. Some factories in the Far East are producing utter rubbish (and supplying big-name former tool manufacturers in the West!), but QS are producing a quality product, albeit down to a price.

In contrast, I think the Chinese are now just jumping on the bandwagon after LN, LV and Clifton have done all the work and taken all the risk.

First off, LN and Clifton haven't taken all the risk, insofar as they haven't designed from the ground up. Secondly, the QS planes aren't LN knock-offs, they're low cost versions of classic designs. As stated elsewhere, if they were infringing patents or design copyright, they'd have to explain themselves in court (or have their products impounded on entry to the EU or the USA).

In marketing terms there's little or no intellectual property in Bailey/Stanley-derived planes (I'm NOT knocking those who make them, just making an observation). The argument against QS amounts to, 'The others were here first, and shouldn't have their turf trodden on!' (NB: I know you weren't exactly saying that, Paul). But the entry barriers to that market really relate to having a good foundry and machine shop, and establishing a sales channel. Quangshen already had the former, and have worked hard to create the latter.

In any case, given the availability and quality of Far Eastern metal bashing, if not them then someone else. We've seen it happen in many other sectors, and for woodies it's happened to almost every machine/power tool manufacturer, and we've been happy to buy lower priced products as a consequence.

In other industries there is a well understood expectation of price collapse over time and a value-to-volume transition. My first CD-writer cost me £400 (less than 15 years ago), now you can't even buy one easily, and straight DVD writers are around £20 (1/20 of the introductory price, for more features!). It's a tough old world out there, because of market forces!

Speaking for myself, I'd love to have Clifton, LV, LN, Philly or Holtey (heck, I can dream!), but realistically I cannot afford any of them. I can just about run to QS, and am considering their #6. Crucially, Quangshen have not taken my business away from the others, because they wouldn't have it anyway (I simply can't afford them). I'm in a different segment to the typical Clifton, LV or Holtey owner. Viewed from this corner of the world, I think there's room for all of them.

Another key factor is how many others come to enjoy our interest because _good_ tools are available at lower cost than before. Thanks to this forum and other places, I've only recently learned to fettle planes etc. For years, my actually-not-too-bad Stanley was torture to set up and use, as I hadn't been inducted into the Black Arts! So if I was just trying out woodworking, based on some of the tools recently sold in the DIY sheds I'd be quickly discouraged. In that context, if Quangshen can up the volumes and keep the quality (harder than it sounds), they'll be encouraging a whole new generation of woodworkers, something I hope we all want to see.

Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit but the principle is sound. What's more, if I get a better #6 than what used to be on offer pre-Quangshen, then I'm a very happy bunny. :lol:

Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant! I'll go back to priming my window frame (I really, REALLY hate painting!). ](*,)

 

[Trizza]

A little follow-up mini-review on my Rutlands QS planes now that I've had some time to play.

The fit and finish is excellent. They look great and feel great in the hands, nice heft. The irons are nice and thick, take a very nice edge and so far seem to last a long time - they're even relatively sharp out of the box. The little block plane is a real gem, I've been using it to fit kitchen filler pieces (veneered particle board) and its been doing a stellar job. Amazing value for money!

So the bad.. The depth adjustment yoke of the No. 6 snapped when I was taking my first real swipes with it. Very disappointing - it wasn't even a violent snap, it just softly gave way as if there was a serious defect in the casting (eg a bubble) causing it to bend. I've been waiting two weeks so far and Rutlands still haven't followed through with any sort of replacement plane/parts or any other form of compensation. If anyone knows where I can find a replacement yoke (I hear Clifton make one for Bedrocks to allow thicker irons to be fitted to older planes? Would that work?) I'd be very keen to find out!

Anyway, summary: They seem to be fantastic planes for the money, assuming I just got unlucky with the yoke. If you don't have the money for an LN or LV, buy one now. But don't make my mistake - order from Matt at Workshop Heaven instead of trying to save even more by ordering from Rutlands.... :evil:

 

[Trizza]

Oh, and the promised photo (sorry for the quality, its taken with my phone)

 

[warrenr]

It seems to me that this is the market doing what it does best: improving products, increasing choice and making it more affordable to consumers. To stay in business companies have to adapt and change.

250million Chinese have come out of poverty in the last ten years because it has an enlightened Government that has embraced free enterprise. For those that have not been the improvements over vast areas in the past decade have been mind blowing. In some areas such as IT they are becoming major inovators. (You use a Chinese credit card and immediately you get an SMS notifying you of your of the transaction).

The Western World has benefitted by cheaper goods and greater choice; plus inflation has been kept very low as the price of consumer goods has fallen. China has forced may Asian countries to go up market and drive forward new industries.

In the west some countries such as Germany and the USA have done well because they have innovative businesses and clear thinking. Like individuals, Goverments (particularly UK) have borrowed more than they can afford and have increased Government services. They have also made it harder and harder for industries to compete through wasteful regulation.

Britain has some such great companies but increasingly fewer survive.
The politicians are threatening to harm and drive out of the country the only sector where we are a real world leader (finance/banking). They blame only the Banking industry and none of the blame falls on the regulators and politicans who encouraged the Banks to lend in the past or the people who borrowed money they could not afford to pay back.

Enough; tired after returning from China last night!

Richard

 

[bugbear]

ey!

So the bad.. The depth adjustment yoke of the No. 6 snapped when I was taking my first real swipes with it. Very disappointing - it wasn't even a violent snap, it just softly gave way as if there was a serious defect in the casting (eg a bubble) causing it to bend.

IIRC someone else reported a rubbish yoke.

BugBear