Mitre saw madness
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Bodgers
Established Member
transatlantic":15b95b9j said:
It probably is. I can dial all the play out in my Dewalt, but at the expensive of a lot of stiffness in its action.
Ultimately, these tools are not precise, highly repeatable cabinet making machines so you have to lower your expectations somewhat, especially at the cheaper end.
custard
Established Member
pike":24b2dmgd said:
Well that depends. Over the years I've used maybe five or six different Kapex 120 machines, tiny in statistical sample terms, but none the less a pattern does emerge.
The lasers rarely comes accurately set from the factory, you can adjust them but if you get them accurate for one cut they will likely be slightly out for another cut, so basically you choose, bevels or mitres or cross cuts, which do you most need the laser for? Trenching is perfectly acceptable for most joinery applications, but for fine furniture levels of precision it's a bit too sensitive to feed speed and the amount of downward pressure you exert, if I really concentrate I can get a trenching cut depth accurate to one or two tenths of a mill across a 100mm wide tenon, is that good enough for your purposes? It's not quite good enough for mine so I often need to take a light pass with a shoulder plane to get it where I want it to be. Furthermore the Kapex adjustment mechanism for trenching cuts is fairly crude and often requires a test cut. Are the saw cuts clean? Pretty clean, especially with a sharp negative rake blade and zero clearance inserts on both the base and the fence, but they're still not quite as clean as you get from say a Morso guillotine. How precise is the fence and base? There's definitely some small manufacturing variation, place the machine on a flat surface and you'll often detect a small deviation in height from one side to another. And beware of second hand examples, particularly 115v site machines, kick back isn't uncommon with any mitre saw and the aluminium fences aren't really beefy enough to withstand it, so you'll often find used examples with fences that are no longer flat and true. Repeatability? Well the mitre scale can be read by eye to about a quarter of a degree, that sounds impressive but it really isn't, for truly gap free mitres you need to go way beyond that, IMO around about 15 seconds of arc is getting you to visually gap free mitres on furniture scale items, so on a Kapex (or any mitre saw for that matter) you'll definitely need a master angle template to set against.
I could go on further but you get the point. I think the Kapex is a smashing machine, I've just freed up enough space in my workshop to buy yet another one so clearly I'm sold. But Bodgers is right, all machines have design compromises and manufacturing tolerances, and it's just not realistic to expect engineering levels of precision and repeatability from a machine that's also designed to be light and portable. You'll often hear some fanboy banging on about their latest purchase being "dead accurate", it's usually silly nonsense that tells you they haven't racked up enough real life experience with that particular tool, or that they're absolute beginners who are easily pleased. The only reviews that are worth a hoot is when an owner gives you a balanced appraisal that includes a fair evaluation of the machine's limits and shortcomings, so something like Nelsun's comments.
The perfect woodworking machine doesn't exist so it's a fools errand to go looking for it, the more experienced and sensible woodworker asks what are the limits of this tool and can I work within that?
Here's a practical example,
The curved stretchers on this occasional table need a halving joint and very precise angled tenons. I can just cut those joints to the standard I want with a Kapex, but it's certainly not do-able straight from the box, it will require test cuts, jigs, and a fair bit of faff to get the machine working to that level of precision. That's why I said "it depends", you can get there, but you're going to have to put some work in.
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custard
Established Member
pike":177u4132 said:
Well that depends. Over the years I've used maybe five or six different Kapex 120 machines, tiny in statistical sample terms, but none the less a pattern does emerge.
The lasers rarely comes accurately set from the factory, you can adjust them but if you get them accurate for one cut they will likely be slightly out for another cut, so basically you choose, bevels or mitres or cross cuts, which do you most need the laser for? Trenching is perfectly acceptable for most joinery applications, but for fine furniture levels of precision it's a bit too sensitive to feed speed and the amount of downward pressure you exert, if I really concentrate I can get a trenching cut depth accurate to one or two tenths of a mill across a 100mm wide tenon, is that good enough for your purposes? It's not quite good enough for mine so I often need to take a light pass with a shoulder plane to get it where I want it to be. Furthermore the Kapex adjustment mechanism for trenching cuts is fairly crude and often requires a test cut. Are the saw cuts clean? Pretty clean, especially with a sharp negative rake blade and zero clearance inserts on both the base and the fence, but they're still not quite as clean as you get from say a Morso guillotine. How precise is the fence and base? There's definitely some small manufacturing variation, place the machine on a flat surface and you'll often detect a small deviation in height from one side to another. And beware of second hand examples, particularly 115v site machines, kick back isn't uncommon with any mitre saw and the aluminium fences aren't really beefy enough to withstand it, so you'll often find used examples with fences that are no longer flat and true. Repeatability? Well the mitre scale can be read by eye to about a quarter of a degree, that sounds impressive but it really isn't, for truly gap free mitres you need to go way beyond that, IMO around about 15 seconds of arc is getting you to visually gap free mitres on furniture scale items, so on a Kapex (or any mitre saw for that matter) you'll definitely need a master angle template to set against.
I could go on further but you get the point. I think the Kapex is a smashing machine, I've just freed up enough space in my workshop to buy yet another one so clearly I'm sold. But Bodgers is right, all machines have design compromises and manufacturing tolerances, and it's just not realistic to expect engineering levels of precision and repeatability from a machine that's also designed to be light and portable. You'll often hear some fanboy banging on about their latest purchase being "dead accurate", it's usually silly nonsense that tells you they haven't racked up enough real life experience with that particular tool, or that they're absolute beginners who are easily pleased. The only reviews that are worth a hoot is when an owner gives you a balanced appraisal that includes a fair evaluation of the machine's limits and shortcomings, so something like Nelsun's comments.
The perfect woodworking machine doesn't exist so it's a fools errand to go looking for it, the more experienced and sensible woodworker asks what are the limits of this tool and can I work within that?
Here's a practical example,
The curved stretchers on this occasional table need a halving joint and very precise angled tenons. I can just cut those joints to the standard I want with a Kapex, but it's certainly not do-able straight from the box, it will require test cuts, jigs, and a fair bit of faff to get the machine working to that level of precision. That's why I said "it depends", you can get there, but you're going to have to put some work in.
Attachments
Agreed, as accurate as my mitre saw is, it still needs the guillotine to finish off the mitre to an acceptable standard for a picture frame, unfortunately picture frames are scrutinised closely by anyone looking at the picture, but then thats the purpose of a picture in a frame :wink: : http://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-mt ... mer-951813 is what I use.
Mike
Mike
I've been following this with interest too. I dont have a mitre saw, just a tenon saw and mitre boxes.
It seems to me that £500+ is a lot of money ...more than I paid for my perfectly ok new lathe (which after 3 months has made over 50 items and had zero problems other than user idiocy).. and the detailed review shows strengths and weaknesses.
I had just one clarifying question for Nelsun, if that's ok..
If you could return the product and have all your money back, would you?
It seems to me that £500+ is a lot of money ...more than I paid for my perfectly ok new lathe (which after 3 months has made over 50 items and had zero problems other than user idiocy).. and the detailed review shows strengths and weaknesses.
I had just one clarifying question for Nelsun, if that's ok..
If you could return the product and have all your money back, would you?
Keithie":2l2a2hv5 said:
It is a lot of money but on balance and compared to the alternative (the KS60) I'm keeping it. It's not perfect but it fills a need for me to have good capacity, be reasonably portable (18kg is by no means light though), reasonable dust collection (more on that when I can process the photos on a PC) and have a small footprint.
Clamping is better than the KS60 which uses standard Festool track clamps from the top down only. The dust port has an angled adapter so the hose doesn't stick out the back like the KS appears to (there'll be a £30 one along soon!) and, from the sounds of things on the FOG, accuracy is up in the air for the KS as well. And then there's the symmetrical fence system which is a bit of a gimmick but I can see it being handy in the future as I have a wonky old house to kit out before I die
But it's horse for courses really. I can see it filling a number of roles for me but then that's me. There is the same saw but without the symmetrical fence thing for about £440ish on FFX. That's still a lot mind you!
Thanks Nelsun... I guess it's the diminishing returns on the extra cost thing that I struggle with...so its horses for courses like you say...I havent figured out what I need a mitre saw for yet (I have a 90deg mitre sled for my bandsaw and could make other angles) ...but I guess the portability and time saving benefits may make more specialist kit easily worth while for other folk (especially vs a hand saw!)...I shall think on!
cheers
cheers
I don't know about anyone else, but the majority of use my mitre saw gets is for cross cutting repeat lengths, which it can do as accurately as you, the operator sets it up, I have recently completed four wardrobe doors which entailed sixty eight separate bits all cut to specific lengths, I would not like to do that by hand and its much easier on the mitre saw and stand than on my table saw.
Mike
Mike
After spending the morning prepping some rather underwhelming oak boards (originally rustic i.e. knotty 18mm flooring) it was time to trim the ends to remove the remaining tongues & grooves. A perfect job to christen the saw with (excitement levels: high)! The first cut wasn't "perfectly" square so I naturally stopped in my tracks to fiddle around (hammer). I then had to have a word with myself and just get on with cutting stuff!
I'll say now that my main point of interest at the time was seeing what the DC was like rather than anything else. To that end, here's a photo of the dust boot:
I tried a few cuts on 100x14mm white oak boards with a 27mm hose into a freshly emptied CT Midi followed by the same with a 36mm hose. I did take pictures of the residual dust (after cleaning up after each cut) but you really can't see much difference in them on screen. However, thanks to my eyes being better than my camera, the 36mm hose certainly did, shock horror, make a *slight* difference. Dull photo showing dust after one cut:
As you can see, it didn't nail 101% of it. Not bad though. Had I had my wits about me I'd have tried a cut with the hose off... but my wits were apparently busy somewhere else.
I had a pile of boards to get done and I wanted to compare how the DC stacked up against my Dewalt DW780. With time being relatively short I decided to cut the ends off 8 boards (i.e. 16 cuts) with each saw and see what difference there was:
DW780 after 16 cuts
KGSV after 16 cuts
The KGSV was much better; the Dewalt would generate a good plume of dust that took me by surprise the first time after using the KGSV. Neither were unsurprisingly perfect at nailing 100% of the dust. B*gger.
Both saws had their stock 60 tooth blades but the Dewalt is 305m (and not brand spanking new) compared to the 216mm one on the KGSV. Cut quality was "good" and "smooth" and I couldn't really tell the difference to be honest.
The sawing action on the KGSV was very smooth on the rails and, with a slow start, felt good all round in actual use - apart from a 6-7 second wait for the blade to stop spinning.
I'll say now that my main point of interest at the time was seeing what the DC was like rather than anything else. To that end, here's a photo of the dust boot:
I tried a few cuts on 100x14mm white oak boards with a 27mm hose into a freshly emptied CT Midi followed by the same with a 36mm hose. I did take pictures of the residual dust (after cleaning up after each cut) but you really can't see much difference in them on screen. However, thanks to my eyes being better than my camera, the 36mm hose certainly did, shock horror, make a *slight* difference. Dull photo showing dust after one cut:
As you can see, it didn't nail 101% of it. Not bad though. Had I had my wits about me I'd have tried a cut with the hose off... but my wits were apparently busy somewhere else.
I had a pile of boards to get done and I wanted to compare how the DC stacked up against my Dewalt DW780. With time being relatively short I decided to cut the ends off 8 boards (i.e. 16 cuts) with each saw and see what difference there was:
DW780 after 16 cuts
KGSV after 16 cuts
The KGSV was much better; the Dewalt would generate a good plume of dust that took me by surprise the first time after using the KGSV. Neither were unsurprisingly perfect at nailing 100% of the dust. B*gger.
Both saws had their stock 60 tooth blades but the Dewalt is 305m (and not brand spanking new) compared to the 216mm one on the KGSV. Cut quality was "good" and "smooth" and I couldn't really tell the difference to be honest.
The sawing action on the KGSV was very smooth on the rails and, with a slow start, felt good all round in actual use - apart from a 6-7 second wait for the blade to stop spinning.
Attachments
I widened and deepened the dust boot on my Makita with a piece of plastic DPC and it clears better than the pic's shown above, but I do have it connected to a 2400watt Numatic which has some serious sucking ability, worth experimenting on other Mitre saws though.
Mike
Mike
Nelson
I just noticed on the DeWalt you did not have the fence zero blade insert in place, this make a lot of difference to the dust pick up on this type of Mitre saw, perhaps try that experiment again with the insert in place?
Mike
I just noticed on the DeWalt you did not have the fence zero blade insert in place, this make a lot of difference to the dust pick up on this type of Mitre saw, perhaps try that experiment again with the insert in place?
Mike
AJB Temple
Finely figured
Thanks for posting. Looks like a good tool.
leigh120585
Member
An old thread, but an interesting looking saw. I recently purchased a metabo sxe450 sander which I'm very impressed with the build quality.
Has anyone else had any experience with this saw since its release?
I currently have a evolution rage which I got from screwfix for around £100 and I'm looking to upgrade to something with better capacity and dust collection.
This saw seems to fit the bill as its footprint against the wall doesn't take up much space!
Has anyone else had any experience with this saw since its release?
I currently have a evolution rage which I got from screwfix for around £100 and I'm looking to upgrade to something with better capacity and dust collection.
This saw seems to fit the bill as its footprint against the wall doesn't take up much space!
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
leigh120585":10zvaii4 said:
I've got a Metabo KGS254M Saw, It's pretty bomb-proof to be honest and it's good value for money at around £200. If I was looking at getting another machine though I would definitely be looking at one that cuts 45 degrees downwards to the left and right rather than just to the right.
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