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Jorny

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In another thread on this forum conserning youtubers the discussion started to touch on the subject of good design.

Inspirered by this I thought I should start the christmas season with a few thoughts on this subject and maybe start a discussion on a few pieces.

By profession and training I work with design. I work as an urban planner and have gone through architecture school and my Alma Mater focused on two things, the artistic process and sustainability. What I learned is that design is not a dark art. Drawing is not a talent. They are both skills that can be trained and learned. They are similar to reading and writing. Most people can learn to read and write, even though not everyone will become a Hemingway, Lagerlöf or Adiche. Most people can learn to design, even though not everyone will become the next Aalto, Mackintosh or Perriand.

One thing I find interesting is that a lot of people are interested in learning how to do perfect joinery rather than learning to make pieces that are well designed and are more impressed by perfect dovetails than great design. There is nothing wrong with this, this is a hobby for most people and whatever makes you happy is ofcourse OK. The thing is though, that I would rather make something with an overall pleasing and well designed shape/proportions and a few dovetails with gaps (or whichever joint) than something that is perfect in details but with bad proportions.

In the other thread there was a link, and short discussion about a maker who seems extremely skilled. Everything seems to be carried out with perfect precision, but it leaves me cold. I found the designs overly busy with too many elements for my taste.

One of Swedens greatest and influential artists and designers the last 200 years was Karin Larsson. She is mostly famous for her textiles which she carried out herself. They are absolutely brilliant. However, people more knowledgeable about textile art have pointed out that she was not always that concerned about that the parts of a weave that are not seen should be perfect. The rocking chair on top left image is a favourite of mine. It was designed and made in 1906. It is modernism years before modernism! It is chunky,blocky, stout but still elegant and very well proportioned. Playful and designed with a sense of humour.
1671621370902.png
1671621443117.png
1671621541438.png


The next design I bring up as good example of design is the sofa we have at home, Träsoffa ("wood sofa") by Nirvan Richter. This is not a unique piece, it is a modern design classic that have been manufactured by the company Norrgavel since 1993. It is in many ways a post modern take on 18th and 19th century Gustavian era furniture as well as designs by Carl Malmsten. It is very much grounded in tradition and at the same time very much a design of the 1990's.
1671622214088.png
1671622243295.png


As a continuation on the design by Richter I would like to show another Swedish classic, by Carl Malmsten. Another wooden sofa, and a stool from the same product line, Visingsö. Like all of Malmstens work, the lines and the proportions are exquisite. This is not advanced woodworking with complicated joints, showy veeneer or expensive wood. This is simple but not simplistic pine furniture that is very beautiful.
1671622746588.png
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So, what are your thoughts about the pieces above? What do you like in a design, and what designs inspire you?
 
Thanks for posting this Jorny. I’ll give it some thought and post when I have chance over the holidays.
 
In another thread on this forum conserning youtubers the discussion started to touch on the subject of good design.

Inspirered by this I thought I should start the christmas season with a few thoughts on this subject and maybe start a discussion on a few pieces.

By profession and training I work with design. I work as an urban planner and have gone through architecture school and my Alma Mater focused on two things, the artistic process and sustainability. What I learned is that design is not a dark art. Drawing is not a talent. They are both skills that can be trained and learned. They are similar to reading and writing. Most people can learn to read and write, even though not everyone will become a Hemingway, Lagerlöf or Adiche. Most people can learn to design, even though not everyone will become the next Aalto, Mackintosh or Perriand.

One thing I find interesting is that a lot of people are interested in learning how to do perfect joinery rather than learning to make pieces that are well designed and are more impressed by perfect dovetails than great design. There is nothing wrong with this, this is a hobby for most people and whatever makes you happy is ofcourse OK. The thing is though, that I would rather make something with an overall pleasing and well designed shape/proportions and a few dovetails with gaps (or whichever joint) than something that is perfect in details but with bad proportions.

In the other thread there was a link, and short discussion about a maker who seems extremely skilled. Everything seems to be carried out with perfect precision, but it leaves me cold. I found the designs overly busy with too many elements for my taste.

One of Swedens greatest and influential artists and designers the last 200 years was Karin Larsson. She is mostly famous for her textiles which she carried out herself. They are absolutely brilliant. However, people more knowledgeable about textile art have pointed out that she was not always that concerned about that the parts of a weave that are not seen should be perfect. The rocking chair on top left image is a favourite of mine. It was designed and made in 1906. It is modernism years before modernism! It is chunky,blocky, stout but still elegant and very well proportioned. Playful and designed with a sense of humour.
View attachment 149489View attachment 149490View attachment 149491

The next design I bring up as good example of design is the sofa we have at home, Träsoffa ("wood sofa") by Nirvan Richter. This is not a unique piece, it is a modern design classic that have been manufactured by the company Norrgavel since 1993. It is in many ways a post modern take on 18th and 19th century Gustavian era furniture as well as designs by Carl Malmsten. It is very much grounded in tradition and at the same time very much a design of the 1990's.
View attachment 149492View attachment 149493

As a continuation on the design by Richter I would like to show another Swedish classic, by Carl Malmsten. Another wooden sofa, and a stool from the same product line, Visingsö. Like all of Malmstens work, the lines and the proportions are exquisite. This is not advanced woodworking with complicated joints, showy veeneer or expensive wood. This is simple but not simplistic pine furniture that is very beautiful.
View attachment 149494View attachment 149495


So, what are your thoughts about the pieces above? What do you like in a design, and what designs inspire you?
Love definitely what I like! Keep it coming. Might have a dig myself!

Need to go back to Sweden with my woodworking hat on!

Perhaps find a Swedish course and stay with the rellies!
 
Love definitely what I like! Keep it coming. Might have a dig myself!

Need to go back to Sweden with my woodworking hat on!

Perhaps find a Swedish course and stay with the rellies!
Or Denmark.
Cycle touring a few years ago Rotterdam to Ejsburg and the first town in Denmark was Tonder - instantly distinctive sense of design and colour compared to Germany and discovered it was home town of Hans Wegner (if my memory serves me right!). Then spotted a furniture shop with a Rietveld Red & Blue chair in the window, which I'd never seen in the flesh before!
Another occasion we dropped in on the Copenhagen Finn Juhl house with the Zara Hadid gallery attached. Brilliant stuff.
I've got some snaps I'll dig them out.
I'm told it's the Sloyd craft training which helps make Scandinavian design what it is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloyd
 
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By profession and training I work with design. I work as an urban planner and have gone through architecture school and my Alma Mater focused on two things, the artistic process and sustainability.

Jorny, by profession I am a psychologist, and not trained in design. On the other hand, my father was an architect and I was influenced by both the Mid Century furniture and house designs in his magazines, shared his love of wood, and we were surrounded by this in the house he designed for us. Here is a set of arm chairs he designed the late 1930's (set in my home) ...

Dads-chair2.jpg


Not by chance, I love and am attracted by the flowing lines of Maloof's rockers, but have not made one. I'm not sure that I want to do so - I've only ever copied one person's design (consciously), and that was Han's Wegner's "The Chair". I made this as a homage ...

WeavingSeatCompletingTheChair_html_m4441928f.jpg


Again, flowing lines and balance ...

WeavingSeatCompletingTheChair_html_2ebf780e.jpg



One thing I find interesting is that a lot of people are interested in learning how to do perfect joinery rather than learning to make pieces that are well designed and are more impressed by perfect dovetails than great design.

The ability to do good joinery is a mark of a good furniture maker. But how one make's a dovetail or a through-tenon will say more about the designer in one than the maker. Krenov used to say something similar. Joinery and design - it is not one or the other. But perhaps one needs to develop the ability to make before one is ready to execute a design?

Also, some of the simplest designs, such as the casework of Krenov, is misinterpreted by many aspiring makers as they do not understand or recognise the proportions. Proportion will make or break a design. Is this taught (with rules, such as the Golden one), or is it innate?

This chest of drawers is one of my favourite designs, which I designed and built for my favourite person, my wife. It features bow fronted drawers and tapered, curved sides ...

FWW-on-Instagram.jpg


The design involved a careful selection of wood (as always) - Makore carcase and Jarrah drawers. Lots of fun componenets, such as a secret-locked jewellery drawer ...

Lingerie-Chest2.jpg


.. and hidden mirror ...

Lingerie-Chest.jpg


A LOT of thought went into the joinery, with all the drawer blades attached with sliding dovetails. And I delighted in making these dovetailed drawers (all compound dovetails) ...

Lingerie-Chest.jpg


I really do not see how one can separate design and construction. And dovetails can form an essential part of a design. Here are pieces that display their dovetails, which are a part of the designs, and do not dominate (in my opinion):

Rounded and mitred dovetails in a coffee table ...

1a.jpg


Similar construction for this side table, which was intended to be light and fun ...

Final11.jpg


Also lots of dovetails ...

Final8.jpg


Last one. A simple table for a friend ... which started as this monstrosity ...

Transformations1_html_m60f62fd2.jpg


The challenge was to turn a frog into a princess ...

3a.jpg


2a.jpg


With a hidden drawer ...

10a.jpg



Untrained hobbiest.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
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.......The ability to do good joinery is a mark of a good furniture maker. But how one make's a dovetail or a through-tenon will say more about the designer in one than the maker. Krenov used to say something similar. Joinery and design - it is not one or the other.
Not sure I agree - I think design is tops by far. The ability to do good joinery is just the mark of a good joiner.
 
I have never studied art/design, so I don't know about any of the historical art/design movements and famous artists/designers.

Of current work I have found online, I love a lot of the work of Caleb Woodard. For example this one

I like the pieces by Malmsten but the thought of sitting on a sofa with no cushions on the back doesn't feel that appealing. I really like the scandi designs of the 1900s, can anyone recommend a web site or book which shows and lists designers and their furniture from this era?
 
I may be chief complainer number one about design discussions, but I think a lot of what burdens us starts with the small things.

if we're not professionally trained, design things are incremental, and it's not always trivial "oh, I know this now, so I'm good".

what's not done, it seems, is "OK, I made this - how could it look better" and a request of "please, no talk about sanding or using a different method for dovetails".

I would be chief offender number one if this kind of discussion was had going all the way down to things like moulding profiles - "anyone have any idea on how to make this moulding profile nicer for the piece?".

I agree that the Pitts furniture was a little busy - it's sort of the style for that type, though. Fancy, and not function with integrated design 50/50.

I needle over little things, like handles, and transitions of curves, and things, but learned probably 6-8 years ago that when I carefully made something, that is where it was like "OK, looks neatly made, but something doesn't look right about it".

Warren Mickley in the US, a talented carver, but also jack of all trades for any hand work when there is paying work that he can beat a larger shop on mentioned that apprentices would've been taught design in a cabinetmaking shop at the same time they were learning the physical skills of making so that both would more or less mature at the same time (at least that's what I got).

it never really catches on online. I think something people don't like is "I just made this piece and I'm OK with putting it up for praise, but I don't want any criticism" and objective looks at "how could it look a little better, which will help carry over to a lot of things that aren't just this piece" never occur.
 
I have never studied art/design, so I don't know about any of the historical art/design movements and famous artists/designers.

Of current work I have found online, I love a lot of the work of Caleb Woodard. For example this one

I like the pieces by Malmsten but the thought of sitting on a sofa with no cushions on the back doesn't feel that appealing. I really like the scandi designs of the 1900s, can anyone recommend a web site or book which shows and lists designers and their furniture from this era?

Hmm, if that was mine I'd want to paint it and colour it all in!
 
Not sure I agree - I think design is tops by far. The ability to do good joinery is just the mark of a good joiner.
Without good joinery you cannot execute good design, you can wreck it, but you cannot do it justice?
 
Design discussions can turn into some kind of philosophical argument. It may appeal to some, it may turn others off. As a hobbyist trying to make something, I would feel uncomfortable trying to imitate a contemporary artist/designer.

For design inspiration, I rather look in the direction of style, rather than personality. I like some aspects of Art Nouveau and Art Deco. I'm not a huge fan of modern furniture, too mass produced/assembly line look on some of that furniture. Bent plywood is not very attractive to me. My architect neighbor loves it, he has several nice and valuable examples in his home.

I find a Louis Majorelle chair very attractive, for example.

907fc96f217b7e42534a107bb914347d.jpg
 
Without good joinery you cannot execute good design, you can wreck it, but you cannot do it justice?

Most of us are hobby makers. I think the two go together - to be able to execute something so that it doesn't influence design negatively, and to be able to design something well so that we don't allow execution to dominate things.

its kind of like music - sometimes a song doesn't need the musicians to dump everything they can do on their instruments in the middle of it. Sometimes that's the focus.
 
Design discussions can turn into some kind of philosophical argument.

thus the idea to boil it down more to elements. otherwise, someone posts ball and claw and the next poster suggests only industrial design era stuff is suitable, because everything else is too showy.

but a lot of us would benefit from "ghee, it could've used a moulding like ____" or smaller larger for an element, or oriented differently.
 
I suppose more of an interesting design rather than super skilled,
but it does have some nice bits, but also some quite odd parts.
Some videos of various chairs , aswell as some modern takes of it, if you youtube national museum of Ireland.


Screenshot-2022-12-21 corrib crafts chair - Google Search.png
 
That's true, we can have endless discussions on what you like and what I like.

Technical discussions on how to execute a design, like what joints to use, that's an interesting discussion for a maker.

Take for example edge jointing, one planes the edges and glues them. Are there other options? how about if you don't want to use glue? Here's an example from Chinese joinery, a sort of sliding wedged mortise and tenon, no glue required.

20220913_094404.jpg


I've seen on an old English book a cruder method where flat head screws are used, instead of tenons, to pull the boards together, glue was used.
 
The problem with this sort of discussion is that the subject matter is very subjective.
Take the sideboard above, I think it's hideous as a piece of artistic design but it is probably an excellent example of functional design.
To take @Jameshow's point above, what if the design brief is 'there shall be minimal joinery? A slab of walnut on hairpin legs might meet the requirement for such a table and the end user might see it as a perfect design.
Let's look at a particular design, @raffo 's example of a chair above. I agree that it is an impressive item to look at but I suspect it is only partially successful as a piece of functional furniture. The seat looks nice and comfortable but l wouldn't like to rest my spine against that flat splat for very long.
So the answer to the question 'is it a good or bad design' can only assessed if you know what the design criteria are.

Brian
 
...

I've seen on an old English book a cruder method where flat head screws are used, instead of tenons, to pull the boards together, glue was used.
We were taught to do it; "slotted screw edge joint". Nothing crude about it.
It was used a lot but unnoticed as the screws remain out of sight until the thing is broken up. I've got a sample piece saved from a staircase I demolished. I wouldn't have noticed it except the edge jointed boards had slipped out of line but stayed together, which would only be possible with a slotted screw edge joint
 
urban planner
I hope that doesnt include street furniture. God how I hate street furniture design.

Years ago, part of my usual bike run through Glasgow, the council installed these solid stone benches in a jet black marble type covering.
The road is pedestrian walkway but also open to traffic like deliveries, and bikes.

Im blasting down, 2 or 3am, some lighting but due to 'environment' its all low wattage. Yes I nearly cycled into one doing about 20+mph, its on a slight incline going down. And at that time of the morning i really blasted through, missed it by 6 inches. Scared the be-Jesus out myself. One week they were easy to see standard benched, the next invisible in the dark blocks of bloody mayhem.
 
Without good joinery you cannot execute good design, you can wreck it, but you cannot do it justice?
Well if you look at Jorny's first and last photo they both show very simple elegant designs with absolutely minimal joinery skill involved. And Ttree's Sligo chair.
Conversely there's some horrible stuff made with very competent joinery. Good joinery doesn't guarantee good design.
In some traditions the mere appearance of simplicity requires quite sophisticated joinery to put together - Japanese, arts n crafts, etc which is a bit of a contradiction.
 
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