Guidance needed

[CNC Paul]

I need a crash scene investigator

In Oct 2008 I had a pretty bad crash on a roundabout, The other driver crashed into my rear offside causing injury to the wife and myself plus £15,000 damage to my car ( in fact it could have been more, but they gave up counting at £15k).
I have a two independent witness’s, one who had a clear view of the roundabout stating that the other driver was not in sight when I entered the roundabout and travelling at high speed. The impact was so great it spun my 2.2ton 4 x 4 180 degree’s in dry conditions.

The other driver’s favourite film is Fast & Furious and Favourite person is the Stig, nuff said.

I was off work for over 6 months with whiplash and a torn tendon to my shoulder, I had no choice but to return to work part time but I am finding it a struggle without doing my usual largish or heavy jobs. The recovery from surgery would be 3 to 12 months, having paid my workshop rent and overheads while I was off work, more time off is not a possibility.



I need to determine the speed of the other driver to support my case, bearing in mind the force of the impact and that his airbags deployed ( my understanding is they only deploy in high speed impact).

Any ideas ?

 

[Russell]

Surely the police would have completed measurements at the time of the accident, Anything now will be subjective and for every expert witness you produce the defense will produce 3 offering an different opinion. I would start with the police and you insurance company they should be providing the experts you need.

 

[toolsntat]

Sorry to hear your predicament :shock:

Is this not something your insurers should be sorting and did you have some sort of uninsured losses comeback?

Andy

 

[CNC Paul]

Surely the police would have completed measurements at the time of the accident, Anything now will be subjective and for every expert witness you produce the defense will produce 3 offering an different opinion. I would start with the police and you insurance company they should be providing the experts you need.

I understand the expert witness issue. The Police and my insurance company come from the same chocolate teapot factory.

The Police did nothing, I was trapped in the car and had to climb out the passenger side. I rang the officer for 2 weeks but he never returned my calls.

 

[Dibs-h]

I need to determine the speed of the other driver to support my case, bearing in mind the force of the impact and that his airbags deployed ( my understanding is they only deploy in high speed impact).

Any ideas ?

Paul

In my Uni days I would have had a go working this out for you & reckon it would be reasonable accurate - but that's a lifetime ago and my applied Maths\Physics just about gets my shoelaces tied these days. :lol:

Maybe there's some maths boffs hiding - my thinking (today) is,

- Paul's car has a known mass and assumed to be stationary. Tires inflated properly and road conditions fine.

- there would be a coefficient of friction relating to the tires on tarmac. This should be obtainable from the Tyre manufacturer if no-one else.

- Assuming the car turned 180 on the spot - mathematically it is possible to work out the force required to overcome the friction (mass of car is known) and rotate the car - i.e. all 4 tyres move in an arc. We make the assumption that the tyres do not deform.

- We should have the force required to do this. If it is assumed that this forced is supplied by the other car de-accelerating from speed X to a stop - this too can be calculated, i.e. how many metres\second.

Yes - there are a few assumptions, but it would give Paul a reasonable idea.

In reality the sidewalls would have deformed, indicating the calcilated force is actually being understated and the required speed of the other car is actually higher than our calculated version. Or our calculated speed is fairly accurate as some of the larger sources of error balance out quite well.

Damned if I can remember any of the equations. You never know an odd braincell might spark up.

Sorry if I've gone all egghead on you all - not been long since I woke up.

Dibs

 

[Harbo]

Sorry about your problems - I had a similar problem many years where the police witnessed the accident but refused to get involved!

I do not think it is quite as easy as that there's all sorts of other factor to take into account (macro and micro texture of the road surfacing etc. etc.) and if these were not recorded officially at the time they cannot be used as evidence.
The police in Hampshire used to have a method of calculating vehicles speeds by measuring the skid marks - but as the police do not seem interested they will probably not have measured them?
You could try the Road Research Lab (TTRL) at Crowthorne if they still exist (they were privatised)? Lots of experts there on accidents etc.

Sorry I cannot be more helpful, but I think it will be down to your witnesses confirming he was driving at excessive speeds and by the amount of damage he caused.
Have you had any advice from Lawyers?

Rod

 

[CNC Paul]

I need to determine the speed of the other driver to support my case, bearing in mind the force of the impact and that his airbags deployed ( my understanding is they only deploy in high speed impact).

Any ideas ?

Paul

In my Uni days I would have had a go working this out for you & reckon it would be reasonable accurate - but that's a lifetime ago and my applied Maths\Physics just about gets my shoelaces tied these days. :lol:

Maybe there's some maths boffs hiding - my thinking (today) is,

- Paul's car has a known mass and assumed to be stationary. Tires inflated properly and road conditions fine.

- there would be a coefficient of friction relating to the tires on tarmac. This should be obtainable from the Tyre manufacturer if no-one else.

- Assuming the car turned 180 on the spot - mathematically it is possible to work out the force required to overcome the friction (mass of car is known) and rotate the car - i.e. all 4 tyres move in an arc. We make the assumption that the tyres do not deform.

- We should have the force required to do this. If it is assumed that this forced is supplied by the other car de-accelerating from speed X to a stop - this too can be calculated, i.e. how many metres\second.

Yes - there are a few assumptions, but it would give Paul a reasonable idea.

In reality the sidewalls would have deformed, indicating the calcilated force is actually being understated and the required speed of the other car is actually higher than our calculated version. Or our calculated speed is fairly accurate as some of the larger sources of error balance out quite well.

Damned if I can remember any of the equations. You never know an odd braincell might spark up.

Sorry if I've gone all egghead on you all - not been long since I woke up.

Dibs

Dibs,

That was the sort of thing I was looking for.

A few other points, at the time of the impact we were virtually travelling the same direction and the grip of the tyre to the tarmac was high enough to rip the rear nearside tyre off the rim.

Harbo,

I will have a look for the Road Research Lab, I did find some interesting information that airbags should only deploy at 30-35mph in this type of crash


I know a lot of this is hypothetic but you never know what you can dig up.


Thank you all

 

[Gary]

I need to determine the speed of the other driver to support my case, bearing in mind the force of the impact and that his airbags deployed ( my understanding is they only deploy in high speed impact).

Why do you need to determine the speed of the other driver?

Surely you only need to supply evidence of their liability and your injuries for any compensation claim. Any civil trial evidence is on the balance of probability and not beyond reasonable doubt.

Excessive speed for the conditions resulting in a serious injury collision and we're possibly looking at dangerous driving, that is a matter for a criminal court and since it's not going that way proving the other drivers speed is not an issue.

Angle of impact and force are an issue when talking about deployment of airbags, so without a recon of the collison scene you will have no useful evidence. Driving directly into your heavy 4x4 at 10 mph may deploy an airbag, but a crash on a motorway at 70 mph could result in no deployment.

What is more important than a crash investigator is having a solicitor who knows what their doing and an understanding of the evidence they are presenting.

 

[Gary]

A few other points, at the time of the impact we were virtually travelling the same direction and the grip of the tyre to the tarmac was high enough to rip the rear nearside tyre off the rim.

Again a proper recon of the scene would have established when your tyre deflated and detatched from the rim. Without this evidence why complicate things? Why give the defence a chance to argue the fact you had a blow out causung the collision?

 

[woodbutcher]

hi .

acording to the law there is a statatury 30 mile per hour speed limit on all roundabouts unles other wise stated which means that the other driver must have been breaking the law at the time he colided with your vehicle therefor has not a leg to stand on.
if the police where involved and nothing was done then you also have cause to adress this fact too.

do you have legal cover on your policy if so then hound your insurers.

woodbutcher

 

[CNC Paul]

hi .

acording to the law there is a statatury 30 mile per hour speed limit on all roundabouts unles other wise stated which means that the other driver must have been breaking the law at the time he colided with your vehicle therefor has not a leg to stand on.
if the police where involved and nothing was done then you also have cause to adress this fact too.

do you have legal cover on your policy if so then hound your insurers.

woodbutcher

Wood

The highway code also states:
Adjust your speed and position to fit in with traffic conditions,
be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you.

The crash occurred at 5.15pm at an extremely busy roundabout he did neither of these.


Luckily I do have legal cover, I just want to gather as much information as I can.

 

[CNC Paul]

Why do you need to determine the speed of the other driver?


What is more important than a crash investigator is having a solicitor who knows what their doing and an understanding of the evidence they are presenting.

Gary,

I am just try to strenthen my case, although I have an eye witness the other side is still holding me 70% responsible. Having a solicitor is great but how do I know if the one provided by the insurance company is any good.

Thanks

 

[Gary]

Gary,

I am just try to strenthen my case, although I have an eye witness the other side is still holding me 70% responsible. Having a solicitor is great but how do I know if the one provided by the insurance company is any good.

Thanks

Am I correct in thinking that you pulled onto the roundabout and were hit on the offside?

 

[CNC Paul]

Gary,

I am just try to strenthen my case, although I have an eye witness the other side is still holding me 70% responsible. Having a solicitor is great but how do I know if the one provided by the insurance company is any good.

Thanks

Am I correct in thinking that you pulled onto the roundabout and were hit on the offside?

Gary,

Yes, that is correct, from when pulled away to the impact I had travelled some 60 feet. The witness who was joining the roundabout behind me has stated that after I pulled onto the roundabout the other driver entered the roundabout at speed.

The other driver also has an interesting profile, his favourite film is Fast & Furious, favourite person is the Stig and thinks Jeremy Clarkson should be Prime Minister.

 

[Gary]

The other driver also has an interesting profile, his favourite film is Fast & Furious, favourite person is the Stig and thinks Jeremy Clarkson should be Prime Minister.

And?

That means nothing.

The other insurance company have you 70% to blame, what have yours said?

 

[Chems]

I was under the impression round about incidents always nearly ended 50/50 as its so difficult to prove who was in the wrong in a lot of cases? Have you not managed to get anywhere at all with the police? Hopefully they took some skid mark evidence as they can work it all out from those. If its any help at all I happen to know a crash investigator through my work with northants fire and would be happy to put you onto him if I thought it could help. Have you tried filing a complaint against the officer who isn't returning your calls, from what I've heard genuine complaints are often acted on very quickly in the police.

As for the stig, clarkson for pm bit, I think what paul is saying is that the driver was a bit of a boy racer, and if it did go to court you could easily find that playing in your favour.

 

[head clansman]

hi

you say you were 60ft onto the round about thats some distant and he hit you from behind, he is in the wrong. rule of the road give way to traffic on your right you being on the roundabout were on his right. even if he hit you from the left hand side of the car he is still in the wrong ,another rules of the road is simple if hit from behind no matter why the driver in the front should stop which you didn't, the driver from the rear is in the wrong , Rule says from insurance company, all driver must drive according to road and weather & traffic condition with due care and attention which he clearly didn't , and you have an independent witness . anyway it's not up to you to deal with this it's down to your insurance company to deal with , thats why you pay them , make them earn there enormous premiums, did you have legal cover if so get them on the case and sit back and relax . hc

example: three car/or more tale end shute, end drivers insurance cover pays for the lot, comes under due care and attention & traffic conditions liabilities passes down the drivers to the last driver insurance company, his payments get hit the most .

 

[blurk99]

have a trawl through the queston boards at honest john

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/threads.htm?f=12

there may be an example of case law that relates to your situation

- you entered the roundabout when the carriageway was clear to the right

- the other party entered the roundabout at what would appear to excess speed

- the other party did not take sufficient action to avoid a collision

 

[Lons]

This doesn't make sense to me :?

I always believed that should there be a crash where injuries are sustained, the police have to be involved and are required to investigate in order to determine if any of the drivers have been driving carelessly or dangerously. They would also routinely breathalise I think.

If the police have not done this, then why not? If they have then you are entitled to be informed of their conclusions. Questions must be asked and a complaint made to the chief constable if necessary IMO.

Secondly: no reputable insurance company would just accept the claim that you were 70% responsible when your version of events with witnesses, suggests otherwise!
They would seek to recover their costs from the other party. That is a very large part of their accountabilities and will only accept "knock for knock" in bog standard incidents. Your £15k + does not fall into this category! .....So....What the hell are they doing about it?

My opinion is that you shouldn't spend your time and energy trying to prove your case-----Instead put major pressure on the above to do their job properly and use the insurance ombudsman if necessary.

Hope you get it sorted, just don't expect instant results...... these wheels turn VERY slowly.

Bob

 

[cambournepete]

acording to the law there is a statatury 30 mile per hour speed limit on all roundabouts unles other wise stated

I don't really want to divert this thread, but I don't believe this is correct.
I cant find any reference to back this up and it's not in the Highway Code.