Gplan (oak) Table refurb question

[gplanij]

Hi

Thanks to water/glass stains, I have been refurbing my GPlan table.

Started flatting it back with 80 grit

Then applied wood dye (not stain) X 3

Then varnish X 3, flatting back between 2 & 3.

Thing is, the visible scratch marks are just that... visible.

I regret starting with 80, and should have begun with 120 (max), I reckon.

So, I've re-flatted, starting with 240, and have gone through to 400 now. There seems no point in chasing it through to 1000 (by hand).

Scratch marks still visible, but surface is smooth... i.e., marks are visible only, cannot feel them.

Cork rubbing block used throughout, and fortunately there's still a good surface-to-surface match with the border

Any suggestions please?

Last pic shows turps cleansed

Wife's happy with how it looks at the moment (prior to white sprit, re-varnish & wax)

Thanks

 

[Doug B]

When you started reflating again you should have started & worked through the grits, I was taught never to jump much more than 100 grit between grits with the coarser abrasives so in your case I’d have gone 120, 180, 240, 320, 400 each time ensuring I’d removed any scratches from the previous grit.
Also it looks like you’ve sanded across the grain which has compounded the scratching always work with the grain.

 

[gplanij]

When you started reflating again you should have started & worked through the grits, I was taught never to jump much more than 100 grit between grits with the coarser abrasives so in your case I’d have gone 120, 180, 240, 320, 400 each time ensuring I’d removed any scratches from the previous grit.
Also it looks like you’ve sanded across the grain which has compounded the scratching always work with the grain.

Good call... too many years working with PU TB650 pattern block for carbon tooling

 

[ajs]

Invest in a cheap random orbit sander, going rate is under £40, often can be had for under £20, and go through the grades next time. You still get the cross grain sanding but the random orbit (not simply orbital) covers up a lot of sins, if you get down to 240 grit in all probability the finish will be visually flawless.

Something like that I'd expect would take perhaps 20 mins to take back to even wood at 60 or 80 grit, perhaps 5-10 minutes per grade going up the grits. Sanders are one of those things where even a cheap power one is infinitely preferable to doing it by hand.

 

[Fred48]

I suspect that the top surface you are working on is a veneer. (the edge being solid wood) When it was originally glued down it was possibly in the region of 0.6 mms thick.

For that reason I would recommend that you use your cork sanding block with the grades of grit you have mentioned, sanding in the direction of the grain, as previously mentioned.

A sanding machine may well cut through the veneer (if that is the case) and ruin the table.

 

[gplanij]

Invest in a cheap random orbit sander, going rate is under £40, often can be had for under £20, and go through the grades next time. You still get the cross grain sanding but the random orbit (not simply orbital) covers up a lot of sins, if you get down to 240 grit in all probability the finish will be visually flawless.

Something like that I'd expect would take perhaps 20 mins to take back to even wood at 60 or 80 grit, perhaps 5-10 minutes per grade going up the grits. Sanders are one of those things where even a cheap power one is infinitely preferable to doing it by hand.

Thank you

 

[gplanij]

I suspect that the top surface you are working on is a veneer. (the edge being solid wood) When it was originally glued down it was possibly in the region of 0.6 mms thick.

For that reason I would recommend that you use your cork sanding block with the grades of grit you have mentioned, sanding in the direction of the grain, as previously mentioned.

A sanding machine may well cut through the veneer (if that is the case) and ruin the table.

Yep, been using a cork block

 

[MichaelChou]

I have the same table and ours also needs doing. I’m interested what led to you choosing a dye? I have never used one.

 

[gplanij]

I used dye as it sinks in; stain stays on the surface

 

[gplanij]

Any recommendations for a good brush for varnishing?
1 coat applied with synthetic, and am pondering Harris... but they potentially lose bristles

 

[Vintage Frames]

The scratches you now see now are those you made when using 80 grit paper.
You now need to eliminate those first with 120 grit paper. then move on to 180 grit.
The highest final grit you'll then need is 320 grit.
It is essential to finish each grit by sanding in the direction of the grain.

After cleaning with white spirit, wipe on a stain of your choice ( dyes are stains - both the same).
Then 2 coats of varnish, denibbing with 320 grit between coats.
Finish with some wax on 0000 wire wool.

 

[MichaelChou]

I used dye as it sinks in; stain stays on the surface

My apologies, I wasn’t clear, what was it about the table top that made you decide to use a dye?

 

[--Tom--]

Scratches from sanding are a visual rather than tactile thing. You still a fair bit of work to get rid of the coarse scratches. 240grit, with the grain. Something like abranet will not clog and help.
Stop regularly and check progress, a wipe with ipa/white spirit/ meths can help show up wayward scratches.

Don’t rush it

 

[Sgian Dubh]

wipe on a stain of your choice ( dyes are stains - both the same).

Hmm? I agree only up to the point that manufacturers, certainly here in the UK, have got into the habit of sloppy or confusing labelling leading to similar confusion by users in wood colourant application.

Long ago, when I started my training the name dye told you that you were working with something that was distinctly different to stain. Dye, at that time, was a solvent in which the colouring material was fully dissolved at a microscopic level. In other words there are no solids and the dye's solvent, coloured by the dye, penetrates the wood fibres effecting a change in the colour of the wood.

On the other hand, stains are a liquid carrier, typically a solvent, in which are suspended coloured pigments which are for the most part insoluble. When applied to wood the pigments lodge in the wood's grain, pores and any other voids. Frequently stains also include a dye, hence the liquid carrier typically being a solvent capable of dissolving the included dye element.

Interestingly, to me anyway, North Americans, from the wood colourant manufacturers to users, maintain this clear distinction between dye and stain. Here in the UK to tell which colourant you're dealing with requires careful reading of the label or the application guidelines. If the label says pigment stain, it's a stain. If the application guidelines indicate that during application regular or occasional stirring of the liquid is required to disperse the colouring particles, or similar phraseology, it's a stain. Anything that's labelled simply as stain (or dye) and says nothing about stirring is almost certainly a dye. Slainte.

 

[gplanij]

No firm consideration really . If anything, generically, dye is more penetrating than stain.

 

[Vintage Frames]

Hmm? I agree only up to the point that manufacturers, certainly here in the UK, have got into the habit of sloppy or confusing labelling leading to similar confusion by users in wood colourant application

And there lies the problem. We now have a generation of 'wood finishers' who don't seem to know anything about wood finishing. If they can't just pop the lid and paint it on, one coat only, then they're not interested.

Does anyone know the difference between stains and pigments? Does anyone even know what to do with a pigment?
If you go on to Fiddes web site, you find they are selling earth pigments described as 'Spirit soluble dry pigment powders'. There is no such thing as a spirit soluble pigment.

Whilst I regard a wood dye as the same as a wood-stain, you could argue that a wood stain is a particular manufacturer's blend to wood dyes, ie a Walnut stain will vary in colour from one manufacturer to the next. But as you said, they are all chemical dyes, usually aniline dyes, which penetrate into the wood and are completely transparent in both nature and effect.

But my apologies to the original OP and wish them good luck with their table top.

 

[gplanij]

Any idea what what the brown/grey flecks are please?

These are from the original dyed, then varnished finish. Dye was applied with a lint-free, while the varnish was applied with a synthetic brush.

Should I use natural or synthetic brush for the varnish?

I have since, flatted back again completely, by hand (Abranet + Mirko block), 120 through to 320, which has got rid of most of the original score marks (x-sanding / 80 grit) shown earlier; some still showing as I'd expected. While it's not perfect, I'm much happier with the overall appearance and great smoothness now.

I could take it further through the grits, but diminishing returns etc. I did invest in a random orbit sander, tested it on a piece of light oak but caution got the better of me as I prefer "feeling" the sanding action directly through my hands, than through a sander. I'll practice with the sander on something less important sometime (loose analogy: for me it's a similar thing to feeling the road in a Caterham 7, compared with not being able to in today's over-refined "cars").

Many thanks for all your replies to this thread !

 

[Vintage Frames]

The small brown/grey flecks are old mould marks.
Don't worry about them. You'd need to bleach them to remove and that could easily go south.
If this was my table, I would have sanded as you have done already.
Wipe over the table top with clean water and let dry.
Go over the surface again with 320 grit paper to remove the raised grain.
Clean the table top with white spirit to remove the residual dust.
Now buy 3 x water-based wood stains.
1 Walnut shade
1 Victorian Mahogany
1 Packet of Van Dyke crystals.
1 best quality flat natural bristle paint brush.
Google those for suppliers - Liberon do all three.

Tip a quantity of Van Dyke crystals into an empty jam jar and pour in very hot water to dissolve them.
Make up to a very dark brown stain.

Using the Walnut stain as a base, add a little Mahogany to warm it up. When you're happy with the shade add in a little of the Van Dyke stain to give the mix a little bit of character.
Practice by puddling the mix on to a scrap piece of wood.

Now dilute your stain a little bit more with clean water and then paint it liberally on to the table top.
Let it soak in for a few minutes before wiping off the excess with a rag.
When it's dry - do it again.
If you think the table to is too light, go for another coat.
If you think it's too dark, wash it back with clean water and finish with a more diluted stain.

Buy a solvent-based varnish, not a water based as this will dissolve the underlying stain.
Dilute a small quantity 50/50 with some white spirit and stir in some Brown Umber Dry Pigment.
Try Ebay or Jacksons Art Supplies.
Add just enough pigment to give a brownish tone to the varnish.
Why are we doing this?
To give the stained table top a more 'solid looking' colour.

Paint this diluted and pigmented stain carefully onto the table top, always working along the grain.
Leave to dry.
Now paint on a fresh coat of clear varnish, diluted 10% white spirit.
When dry, lightly sand with 400 grit paper.
Repeat until you have a flat even build of varnish.
When dry, dull the gloss with 00 wire wool before a light coat of clear wax.

 

[aet1]

The small brown/grey flecks are old mould marks.
Don't worry about them. You'd need to bleach them to remove and that could easily go south.
If this was my table, I would have sanded as you have done already.
Wipe over the table top with clean water and let dry.
Go over the surface again with 320 grit paper to remove the raised grain.
Clean the table top with white spirit to remove the residual dust.
Now buy 3 x water-based wood stains.
1 Walnut shade
1 Victorian Mahogany
1 Packet of Van Dyke crystals.
1 best quality flat natural bristle paint brush.
Google those for suppliers - Liberon do all three.

Tip a quantity of Van Dyke crystals into an empty jam jar and pour in very hot water to dissolve them.
Make up to a very dark brown stain.

Using the Walnut stain as a base, add a little Mahogany to warm it up. When you're happy with the shade add in a little of the Van Dyke stain to give the mix a little bit of character.
Practice by puddling the mix on to a scrap piece of wood.

Now dilute your stain a little bit more with clean water and then paint it liberally on to the table top.
Let it soak in for a few minutes before wiping off the excess with a rag.
When it's dry - do it again.
If you think the table to is too light, go for another coat.
If you think it's too dark, wash it back with clean water and finish with a more diluted stain.

Buy a solvent-based varnish, not a water based as this will dissolve the underlying stain.
Dilute a small quantity 50/50 with some white spirit and stir in some Brown Umber Dry Pigment.
Try Ebay or Jacksons Art Supplies.
Add just enough pigment to give a brownish tone to the varnish.
Why are we doing this?
To give the stained table top a more 'solid looking' colour.

Paint this diluted and pigmented stain carefully onto the table top, always working along the grain.
Leave to dry.
Now paint on a fresh coat of clear varnish, diluted 10% white spirit.
When dry, lightly sand with 400 grit paper.
Repeat until you have a flat even build of varnish.
When dry, dull the gloss with 00 wire wool before a light coat of clear wax.

I think you might have also answered an issue for me. It's quite a time since I used varnish and I am sure it did not dry as fast as it does now - which is the same as with paint, it all seems to say "fast drying" and it is. It seems that everything has to be done in a hurry which is anathema to working in wood as a hobby. By thinning 10% I suppose this might slow things to the stage that I don't have to rush and can't flatten or feather the varnish to reduce brushmarks (I'm using a quality pure bristle brush).

 

[Vintage Frames]

I fear even diluting the varnish will not slow it's drying so that you can give the finish the care you want to use.
Many modern varnishes have an excess of 'driers' in their mix. It's to cater for the hobby user who sometimes expects results in one coat.
Buy a vanish from one of the more traditional finishing suppliers online, and you should be able to manipulate the finish to suit.