richardkirkman
Established Member
MarkDennehy said:
Cabinet scrapers?
- Thread starter richardkirkman
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bugbear
Established Member
richardkirkman":2g8p35ry said:
The top result from a google for "Arno carbide burnisher" is workshop heaven.
https://www.workshopheaven.com/arno-car ... isher.html
BugBear
MarkDennehy
Established Member
Yup, that's where I got mine (though I got mine off their ebay shop).
Paddy Roxburgh
Established Member
I've got the Arno carbide burnisher from WH too. Well worth the £20.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
HSS drill bit is the simplest solution to find..I think I used a 10mm one the same as my two cherries one
I tested this out for myself on that scraper build thread I posted here ...
Worked grand but a bit awkward for the reburnishing if you had sharp edges on the bit ...
What do you folks use to re-establish the bevel ?
And do you folks notice difference in going to a mirror polish on the backs ?
Tom
I tested this out for myself on that scraper build thread I posted here ...
Worked grand but a bit awkward for the reburnishing if you had sharp edges on the bit ...
What do you folks use to re-establish the bevel ?
And do you folks notice difference in going to a mirror polish on the backs ?
Tom
custard
Established Member
Horses for courses.
There's a new generation of scrapers available which are much harder than previous ones, you can buy them ready made as scrapers or you can make them from very large HSS industrial hacksaw blades, they're so hard they need something like the Arno burnisher or an eggshell profile burnisher. Then there are medium hardness scrapers like you'd get from Bahco or Clifton, they seem to work best with a dedicated, shop bought burnisher. Finally there are traditional card scrapers made from old saws, these tend to be the softest of all and can be burnished with a good quality screwdriver, etc.
Personally I think making your own scraper from an old saw is a waste of time. First you'd need a saw plate with absolutely zero pitting or you're guaranteed a terrible result, plus the vast majority of woodworkers won't have the metal working skills or equipment to effect a clean cut in a saw plate, so you're looking at an awfully long time flattening off the surfaces and edges, I'll do that for making small scratch stock cutters but not for a much larger card scraper; and finally an excellent quality card scraper only costs a couple of quid and will last a lifetime. So I don't see the point in copying what made sense for a penniless Victorian apprentice when it's irrelevant today.
At the other extreme the ultra hard scrapers also don't work for me in my cabinet work, yes they last longer so I can see their relevance for varnish removing or crude tasks like that, but they're just too hard to give the subtle feedback needed for forming delicate hooks. Similarly when I tried an Arno burnisher on a moderate hardness Bahco scraper it was just too effective, and the hook was heavier than I want for furniture making, and that applied even when I followed the old principle of burnishing with the same pressure you'd use for buttering bread.
So I stick to moderately hard scrapers like Clifton or Bahco and use a good quality commercial burnisher. That combination gives me everything I need for working with hardwoods and veneers on furniture scale projects, plus I can clean up the edges and form a new hook within a couple of minutes and get straight back to work.
There's a new generation of scrapers available which are much harder than previous ones, you can buy them ready made as scrapers or you can make them from very large HSS industrial hacksaw blades, they're so hard they need something like the Arno burnisher or an eggshell profile burnisher. Then there are medium hardness scrapers like you'd get from Bahco or Clifton, they seem to work best with a dedicated, shop bought burnisher. Finally there are traditional card scrapers made from old saws, these tend to be the softest of all and can be burnished with a good quality screwdriver, etc.
Personally I think making your own scraper from an old saw is a waste of time. First you'd need a saw plate with absolutely zero pitting or you're guaranteed a terrible result, plus the vast majority of woodworkers won't have the metal working skills or equipment to effect a clean cut in a saw plate, so you're looking at an awfully long time flattening off the surfaces and edges, I'll do that for making small scratch stock cutters but not for a much larger card scraper; and finally an excellent quality card scraper only costs a couple of quid and will last a lifetime. So I don't see the point in copying what made sense for a penniless Victorian apprentice when it's irrelevant today.
At the other extreme the ultra hard scrapers also don't work for me in my cabinet work, yes they last longer so I can see their relevance for varnish removing or crude tasks like that, but they're just too hard to give the subtle feedback needed for forming delicate hooks. Similarly when I tried an Arno burnisher on a moderate hardness Bahco scraper it was just too effective, and the hook was heavier than I want for furniture making, and that applied even when I followed the old principle of burnishing with the same pressure you'd use for buttering bread.
So I stick to moderately hard scrapers like Clifton or Bahco and use a good quality commercial burnisher. That combination gives me everything I need for working with hardwoods and veneers on furniture scale projects, plus I can clean up the edges and form a new hook within a couple of minutes and get straight back to work.
Racers
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I use old saw blades, you only need to do the ruler trick to get a smooth face for the burr.
I made a burnisher from a 3mm carbide drill bit with a copper ferrule, it works very well I think the small radius helps turning the hook you don't need much pressure.
I often just flatten the burr and re-turn it several times before starting from scratch, usually when I have worked my way through all my scrapers.
Pete
I made a burnisher from a 3mm carbide drill bit with a copper ferrule, it works very well I think the small radius helps turning the hook you don't need much pressure.
I often just flatten the burr and re-turn it several times before starting from scratch, usually when I have worked my way through all my scrapers.
Pete
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Thanks Custard,
Do find the no.80 scraper plane iron in the same hardness area, Or significantly harder than your Bahco card scrapers ?
I'm trying to figure out if I'm wasting time, not touching the back of my Stanley no.80 with anything other than my
mirror polish diamond hone...
I've been considering either getting a really rough oilstone or those cheap Ultex or similar diamond hones for the job.
I think this is what's necessary now .
Pete
I got the impression that the reburnishing only was possible to do once...
Have you ever done this "rolled the hook more than twice" with a larger burnisher ?
And do you use those wee burnishers for the no.80 ..
And do you get more than 1 or 2 rolled hooks with them ?
Thanks,
Tom
Do find the no.80 scraper plane iron in the same hardness area, Or significantly harder than your Bahco card scrapers ?
I'm trying to figure out if I'm wasting time, not touching the back of my Stanley no.80 with anything other than my
mirror polish diamond hone...
I've been considering either getting a really rough oilstone or those cheap Ultex or similar diamond hones for the job.
I think this is what's necessary now .
Pete
I got the impression that the reburnishing only was possible to do once...
Have you ever done this "rolled the hook more than twice" with a larger burnisher ?
And do you use those wee burnishers for the no.80 ..
And do you get more than 1 or 2 rolled hooks with them ?
Thanks,
Tom
Racers
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I reburnish lots of times if I can't be bothered to prepare the edge properly, it is a case of diminishing returns.
I did it with my Two Cherrys burnisher and my carbide one, I don't use the Two Cherrys one anymore.
The blade in my 80 gets done with the carbide one with no problems, the one in my scraper plane is a 3mm O1 steel and is to hard to form a burr it works with just a sharp (45deg) blade.
You can make a blade for an 80 from3mm O1 as well makes a big improvement.
Pete
I did it with my Two Cherrys burnisher and my carbide one, I don't use the Two Cherrys one anymore.
The blade in my 80 gets done with the carbide one with no problems, the one in my scraper plane is a 3mm O1 steel and is to hard to form a burr it works with just a sharp (45deg) blade.
You can make a blade for an 80 from3mm O1 as well makes a big improvement.
Pete
Re. cutting down a saw (old or new) to make your own scrapers, it's actually dead easy using a variety of techniques. The most obvious is to use a hacksaw, which most people have, you can also use a cold chisel if you happen to have one. And a more modern alternative often used these days: a slitting disk/cutting disk chucked up in a power drill.
If the cut edges don't turn out particularly straight that's really no big deal. You use the same file you need anyway to prepare the edge for use so nothing additional is required, and as it's saw plate the metal will file easily. And of course you only have to do the shaping once per edge, so given the expected lifetime of the tool it's hardly a dealbreaker if it does take more than 10 minutes!
If the cut edges don't turn out particularly straight that's really no big deal. You use the same file you need anyway to prepare the edge for use so nothing additional is required, and as it's saw plate the metal will file easily. And of course you only have to do the shaping once per edge, so given the expected lifetime of the tool it's hardly a dealbreaker if it does take more than 10 minutes!
custard
Established Member
Ttrees":1r75po07 said:
If it's a Stanley or Record 80 then it's similar to a Bahco or Clifton card scraper and the same burnisher works fine.
If it's a Veritas or LN scraper plane then it's A2 steel and you need to press noticeably harder with a normal burnisher, or use a burnisher with a tighter radius, or use a carbide burnisher like the Arno.
The point is "horses for courses", harder steels don't always bring the advantages they're bigged up to have. They can become so hard that it's difficult to subtly or conveniently shape them, and they may require special equipment.
Sheffield Tony
Ghost of the disenchanted
I can sort of agree that scrapers are not expensive, so economically it makes little sense. But it isn't that difficult - a good hacksaw and file will do it - and you can have exactly the shape and size you want. Using an old saw might give you problems with pitting, but a recent but worn out hardpoint saw will be fine - apart from the induction hardened teeth the rest is just fairly normal spring steel. My scrapers are all Irwin, and came looking a bit like a saw. A Pax tool steel burnisher works fine. I suspect that if you buy Thomas Flinn or Clifton scrapers, what you are getting is exactly the same as saw steel. The offered thicknesses (15 & 32 thou) are suspiciously the same.
Still like my Clifton HSS burnisher. It gives feedback. You can tell when you've spend too little time at the stones after a fresh filing.
The last thing you want when burnishing is a one-size-fits-all burr. The point of a scraper is its versatility which is achieved by imparting different sized burrs and even occasionally none at all, when only whiskers of wood need to be removed.
And besides scraper steel so hard that carbide must be used is absurd on its face, completely missing the mark.
The last thing you want when burnishing is a one-size-fits-all burr. The point of a scraper is its versatility which is achieved by imparting different sized burrs and even occasionally none at all, when only whiskers of wood need to be removed.
And besides scraper steel so hard that carbide must be used is absurd on its face, completely missing the mark.
Dead on.CStanford":1vk77yiu said:
I think many keep a variety of scrapers on hand for exactly this reason, I know I do. My favoured scraper edge for really fine work is no burr at all, just a sharp edge (not a sharp arris, a knife edge, but both work).
custard
Established Member
CStanford":rjc259ob said:
+1
The scraper for removing router marks on a moulding isn't the same scraper you'd use for the final finishing on a highly figured veneered desk that you've just sunk 600 hours in making.
richardkirkman
Established Member
How do people leave their cabinet scrapers on worktops, do you put the blade down or do you leave it on its side?
MarkDennehy
Established Member
I just put my #080 blade down like all my planes and then don't go belting the thing along the bench. But I just do that because of something Paul Sellers said so whether or not it's the right way to do it, I don't know. And it's never there for long because it normally lives hanging on a screw in the wall an arm's reach away, like my spokeshaves.
Interesting.
Not so long ago, more out of curiosity than anything else, I picked up a number 4 plane at a car boot. After a quick look and a twiddle I put it back down in what I consider the safest and right way. In no uncertain terms he asked me to lay it on its side.
I explained that the iron was fully retracted but he wasn't having any of it. I walked on.
Not so long ago, more out of curiosity than anything else, I picked up a number 4 plane at a car boot. After a quick look and a twiddle I put it back down in what I consider the safest and right way. In no uncertain terms he asked me to lay it on its side.
I explained that the iron was fully retracted but he wasn't having any of it. I walked on.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
What I'm hearing here is ,Some of you guys have a variety of scrapers ..
These folks have about... say at least two or more of the same profile scrapers .
The cabinetmaker uses the non highly polished back one for rougher work ..burnishes straight from a washita or 1000g stone or less...
and keeps the mirror polished one for the fine work, and only touches the back with at least a 2000g ...
This refined Stanley/Record scraper 01 steel iron gets reburnished once, or possibly more, or not atall , and gets
worked on the bevel side with a rough stone, or just ground again and worked on the bevel....
In this fine work scenario ....
Does anyone go from the rough stone working the bevel...switching to the fine mirror hone for the back, and switching
back to the rough for the bevel again ...and so on ?
Depending on burnishing preferences ....Possibly rolling/eliminating the hook back again before progressing to the fine hone (as the hook would defeat the purpose of polishing if it were there)
Some of these folks will use a harder steel for their fine scrapers ...or will go straight from the grinder using the burr,
and not a hook for the rougher work .
I suspect the folks that work the harder steels for fine work have a huge variety of grits to progress to .
It seems evident to me that I need a more aggressive stone than my washita for my Stanley no.80 as I plan on using it for refined work .
I might also want to get an additional iron to use for rough work ...and use it with a nice big hook for rough work
Prepared something along the lines like Mitch's way
Tom
These folks have about... say at least two or more of the same profile scrapers .
The cabinetmaker uses the non highly polished back one for rougher work ..burnishes straight from a washita or 1000g stone or less...
and keeps the mirror polished one for the fine work, and only touches the back with at least a 2000g ...
This refined Stanley/Record scraper 01 steel iron gets reburnished once, or possibly more, or not atall , and gets
worked on the bevel side with a rough stone, or just ground again and worked on the bevel....
In this fine work scenario ....
Does anyone go from the rough stone working the bevel...switching to the fine mirror hone for the back, and switching
back to the rough for the bevel again ...and so on ?
Depending on burnishing preferences ....Possibly rolling/eliminating the hook back again before progressing to the fine hone (as the hook would defeat the purpose of polishing if it were there)
Some of these folks will use a harder steel for their fine scrapers ...or will go straight from the grinder using the burr,
and not a hook for the rougher work .
I suspect the folks that work the harder steels for fine work have a huge variety of grits to progress to .
It seems evident to me that I need a more aggressive stone than my washita for my Stanley no.80 as I plan on using it for refined work .
I might also want to get an additional iron to use for rough work ...and use it with a nice big hook for rough work
Prepared something along the lines like Mitch's way
Tom
custard
Established Member
You're possibly making this more complicated and prescriptive than necessary. Once you understand the basics get some suitable hardwood and practise, it's not rocket science and you'll soon settle on a method that works for you. I've been lucky enough to work alongside some of the best cabinet makers in the country and they often have very different approaches to scraping, if the end result is good quality it doesn't really matter how you get there.
