anyone run their own design and manuf furniture co.

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navypaul":1031x3e4 said:
my plan is an online shop to sell to the country/world or whoever wants it. no limitations on market just probs associated with it

This something I am currently setting up as an addition to my current business, If you decide to go a head make some enquires with the local Business Link or what ever they are now called in England.

Here in Scotland there is some funding available and also advice for e-commerce BUT you need to apply for it before you start on the project.

You will be able to build your prototypes etc but I would talk to them first to find which is the best use of any grant money that is out there.

Help is available in setting up a woodworking business, but as soon as you mention the Internet and E-commerce eyes light up and there can be more money available to you, its technology and is sexy.

Unless you are really computer savvy and have set up an E-commerce site before, get someone who knows how to do it spend the time on your designs.

It has to look slick and be secure.

My current basic gallery website I did myself and it is ok , but I will pay for the new one.

I guess from your posts that you are currently in the forces, is there any help when you come out with resettlement which will help you get to where you want to be?
 
tomatwark":2g0s3obo said:
navypaul":2g0s3obo said:
my plan is an online shop to sell to the country/world or whoever wants it. no limitations on market just probs associated with it

This something I am currently setting up as an addition to my current business, If you decide to go a head make some enquires with the local Business Link or what ever they are now called in England.

Here in Scotland there is some funding available and also advice for e-commerce BUT you need to apply for it before you start on the project.

You will be able to build your prototypes etc but I would talk to them first to find which is the best use of any grant money that is out there.

Help is available in setting up a woodworking business, but as soon as you mention the Internet and E-commerce eyes light up and there can be more money available to you, its technology and is sexy.

Unless you are really computer savvy and have set up an E-commerce site before, get someone who knows how to do it spend the time on your designs.

It has to look slick and be secure.

My current basic gallery website I did myself and it is ok , but I will pay for the new one.

I guess from your posts that you are currently in the forces, is there any help when you come out with resettlement which will help you get to where you want to be?

resettlement is good for training and courses exactly like this but im not planning to come out yet not too long in the future but not yet
 
IMHO
1) Go for it (with all the advise above ringing in your ears).
2) Do not involve family (unless they are extremely forgiving or your other 1/2 likes bookkeeping & is good at it).
3) No cash flow means you are practically insolvent no matter what you are owed.
4) Bookkeeping is sh111t, the software is not easy to learn & the computer it is stored on will fail outright.. & so will the next 1's.
5) Couriers will smash &/or lose your goods all too often & you will be extremely lucky to get proper compensation.. if any.
6) Tax is taxing.
7) Don't be too precious about the business. It is said that it is the 3rd business that is the success & highly unlikely that the 1st attempt is.

HTH
Togs
 
Togalosh":kil2rs4v said:
......
4) Bookkeeping is sh111t, the software is not easy to learn & the computer it is stored on will fail outright.. & so will the next 1's.
.....
Yes but it's a lot easier with pencil and paper. My wife keeps trying to do stuff with spread sheets etc but it's hopeless - takes up many hours and the results are impenetrable, if not lost for ever at the click of a mouse.
An accountant showed me this and I've been grateful ever since:
Plain lined A4 paper in a ring binder - draw in with a ruler as many vertical columns as you want across two pages. Entries on the left 2 or 3 columns and analysis to the right. Pencil means you can rub out mistakes. One folder for sales (or one page - depends on your turnover,) one folder for purchases.
And a calculator if you can't do simple addition.
Pencil also means you can insert comments or add short columns etc. to be deleted if not wanted. Leaving free space helps.
Ring binder means you can insert new pages or re-arrange existing ones , very easily.
 
Jacob":gwjx9tvz said:
Togalosh":gwjx9tvz said:
......
4) Bookkeeping is sh111t, the software is not easy to learn & the computer it is stored on will fail outright.. & so will the next 1's.
.....
Yes but it's a lot easier with pencil and paper. My wife keeps trying to do stuff with spread sheets etc but it's hopeless - takes up many hours and the results are impenetrable, if not lost for ever at the click of a mouse.
An accountant showed me this and I've been grateful ever since:
Plain lined A4 paper in a ring binder - draw in with a ruler as many vertical columns as you want across two pages. Entries on the left 2 or 3 columns and analysis to the right. Pencil means you can rub out mistakes. One folder for sales (or one page - depends on your turnover,) one folder for purchases.
And a calculator if you can't do simple addition.
Pencil also means you can insert comments or add short columns etc. to be deleted if not wanted. Leaving free space helps.
Ring binder means you can insert new pages or re-arrange existing ones , very easily.

Very spurious, so many variables, one man bands maybe, other than that, the benefits of software accounts far outweigh pencil and paper.
 
Manual bookkeeping is ok for a simple income and expenditure type of account that a self employed person may use.

Anybody that is VAT registered, employs people on paye or is a ltd co will find software easier. I made the mistake of starting out with quickbooks - American software not set out like English accounting and it allowed all parts of the accounts to be edited. I now use Sage; the de-facto programme for accounts in this country and understood by accountants. Just had to spend £500 on a new pensions module for new regulations.
 
RobinBHM":1yyz67a0 said:
Manual bookkeeping is ok for a simple income and expenditure type of account that a self employed person may use.
Yes that's what I'm saying. It's more than "OK" it's the best way to start
Anybody that is VAT registered, employs people on paye or is a ltd co will find software easier. I made the mistake of starting out with quickbooks - American software not set out like English accounting and it allowed all parts of the accounts to be edited. I now use Sage; the de-facto programme for accounts in this country and understood by accountants. Just had to spend £500 on a new pensions module for new regulations.
VAT no prob manually - you just pencil in 3 columns so you have total; 1 with vat, 2 without vat, 3 vat.
I'd strongly advise any start-up sole trader to keep it simple with pencil and paper, until a higher level of complexity is unavoidable. In fact this may never happen.
Keeping it simple also means you get to understand the process whereas a premature attempt via a computer may leave you confused for ever more.

PS and keep all receipts and other odds n ends on a spike until you take them off and enter them in the books and put them away never to be referred to again (if you are lucky)
 
Togalosh":3h9c1r9w said:
IMHO

5) Couriers will smash &/or lose your goods all too often & you will be extremely lucky to get proper compensation.. if any.
7) Don't be too precious about the business. It is said that it is the 3rd business that is the success & highly unlikely that the 1st attempt is.

HTH
Togs

are couriers really that bad?
should i set all 3 up at once to save time??

paul
 
VAT?

The 2015/16 VAT threshold is £82,000. An independent furniture maker working as a sole trader is unlikely to get anywhere close to that. My turnover is less than half that level with very little prospect of ever hitting the VAT limit...there simply aren't enough hours in the day for one man to produce enough individually crafted, hardwood furniture to exceed that hurdle!

Of course if someone is the main family breadwinner or has a recent mortgage or is paying rent on a workshop, then things will likely be different. Not because they'll suddenly get their finger out and start working harder, but simply because financial imperatives mean they'll start working differently. In essence they'll almost certainly migrate their business towards fitted furniture or joinery packages. And then they'll be processing larger quantities of raw materials, chiefly sheet goods, softwoods, or cheaper African hardwoods, so the VAT limit will start to become relevant.

Maybe it's time to start layering hard numbers onto this abstract discussion.

If the plan is to produce high quality, individually crafted pieces of hardwood furniture as a sole trader then I'll bet pennies to pounds that the maker ends up with a gross contribution of between £15,000 and £25,000 per year (that's after deducting all raw material costs but before deducting any fixed overhead costs, but whichever way you cut these numbers VAT simply doesn't feature). Someone in the lucky position of having almost no overheads, no mortgage, a supportive partner with a proper job, easy access to a wealthy customer base, a pension, or a part time lucrative job, can make this modest scenario fly, and if so then a very pleasant occupation it is too. This is where I reside and I've absolutely no desire to be anywhere else.

But if a maker needs or wants to earn more then they'll almost certainly have to do something differently.

Fitted furniture work is the most obvious candidate. But as any of the people on this forum active in fitted work will tell you, it's no walk in the park.

What I hear from furniture makers who have gone this route is that you outgrow your bespoke furniture workshop very, very quickly. You need lots more space for finished cabinets, spraying, storage of sheet goods, etc. You need the bigger scale equipment capable of processing sheet goods accurately and efficiently. You need to be able to schedule your work in with that of the other trades involved (which means yet more storage space when delivery dates get changed). You need to be able to show prospective customers what they'll be getting for their money. And what happens in almost all the cases I've seen is that fitted work tends to crowd out the bespoke furniture making, perhaps not completely, but the ratio of fitted to bespoke work is generally much larger than makers originally envisaged, maybe of the order of 10:1 rather than the 1:1 they often hoped it would be. My advice to anyone considering fitted work would be don't think of it as a second best option for keeping the wolf from the door, but throw all your creative energies into it and go for it whole heartedly. Here's a role model worth emulating, a seriously talented furniture maker (and by that I mean a time served cabinet maker capable of making virtually any hardwood furniture to the very highest standards) who decided that bespoke furniture wasn't viable and focused his strong design skills exclusively into kitchen work,

http://www.houzz.co.uk/pro/johnnygreyst ... ey-studios

Another obvious route is joinery packages. So taking on the subbed out contracts to realise an architect led development project. This might get the maker closer to bespoke free standing furniture work, but it's within the commercial framework of a larger architectural undertaking. An example of a successful business model along these lines could be this one,

http://www.cimitree.co.uk

However, you'll immediately see that both of these examples are real businesses! Gone is any sort of bucolic dream of pottering in your own small workshop while communing with the timber; this is about scheduling, deadlines, productivity, managerial decisions, and the endless search for greater efficiency. These are not stress free options!

Now there are other options for the maker who is determined to be purist about creating original furniture, but still wants to take a bigger wage. I mentioned earlier in this thread the Studio Furniture movement and six figure prices, as I said at one time that market really did look like the solution, but it's struggled badly since the 2007/8 recession and may never fully return. In any event it's an option that's only open to makers genuinely capable of marrying extraordinary original designs with extraordinary cabinet making skill. Another possibility is using teaching to cover the workshop overheads and make a profit while freeing up enough of the maker's time to produce masterpiece works. This business model is growing all the time and you don't have to look far to find examples, here are two but there are many more with new entrants arriving all the time,

http://www.marcfish.co.uk

http://www.watersandacland.co.uk

Finally, it's worth saying a word about sharing overheads in a joint workshop. I know a few of these that seem to work okay, but I know more that have foundered, generally because of silly personality clashes that have escalated. And it's easy to see how things can go horribly wrong. Maker A has a client visit the workshop, who then sees something they like that Maker B has made and wants one. Who then takes on that job? Or Maker A starts to take on more joinery work and needs the spindle moulder a lot more, Makers B and C get frustrated that they can't access that particular machine. How do you resolve that? Or Maker A is constantly "borrowing" bits of "scrap" for his chair making jigs, but never seems to actually order any MDF, Ply, or Poplar. What's the solution? So shared workshops have enormous advantages, but to succeed they need exceptionally civic minded craftsmen or very clear rules...probably both!

Anyhow, from where I sit in this business that's how the world looks to me. Whatever you finally choose, I wish you luck, success, and a great deal of pleasure along the way!
 
Brilliant post Custard.
I don't think I'll bother. It's just easier to watch TV, sit at the internet, watch someone making things on Utube!
 
custard":gxhb0o1b said:
......In essence they'll almost certainly migrate their business towards fitted furniture or joinery packages. .....
Or making multiples - stuff to sell rather than individually crafted, bespoke etc.
I don't know why woodworkers don't like this side of the business - I think they are hung up on a dubious romantic notion of how things should be done. As a result they end up teaching instead (and promulgating dubious romantic notions!)

Or to put it another way - virtually everything you own was made in multiples and not bespoke. I don't know anybody who would buy bespoke woodwork and I never have myself (except "fitted" kitchen is the nearest most people get to bespoke). So why does anybody think there is much of a market out there, particularly bearing in mind that bespoke can cost many times more than a production run?
 
Very interesting thread.

wolfey":xgjyd3mv said:
...With taking a step back from my company which is more manufacture based now (not what I ever planned to create but is a rolling snowball now days and if it stopped for a week it would probably fold) I am going back to where it all started and setting up a new local joinery shop to once again supply fitted furniture, kitchens, gates doors ect to the local market.(bit of advice, steer clear of the timber window market unless you are a power house!) tuff side of the industry unless you are big. Great on a small scale for 'Church works' ect tho...
Hmmmm, making fitted furniture and kitchens in Essex. Isn't Matching Green in Essex, where Doctor Bob makes fitted furniture and kitchens? This one could have legs :wink: .

Terry.
 
Jacob":htltgswf said:
custard":htltgswf said:
......In essence they'll almost certainly migrate their business towards fitted furniture or joinery packages. .....
Or making multiples - stuff to sell rather than individually crafted, bespoke etc.
I don't know why woodworkers don't like this side of the business - I think they are hung up on a dubious romantic notion of how things should be done. As a result they end up teaching instead (and promulgating dubious romantic notions!)

Or to put it another way - virtually everything you own was made in multiples and not bespoke. I don't know anybody who would buy bespoke woodwork and I never have myself (except "fitted" kitchen is the nearest most people get to bespoke). So why does anybody think there is much of a market out there, particularly bearing in mind that bespoke can cost many times more than a production run?

this was my idea well a bit of a combination of the two, i have very limited space at the moment so i offer a product that you can but 'off the shelf' except that shelf is virtual, i then make it and sent to you. templates already made up and time has been minimalised by prior prep the customer knows what he/she/they are getting because of pics and a how i made this film.

thats the plan anyway good i n theory


just out of curiosity how have you been marketing your business?
 
navypaul":2a52isxr said:
Jacob":2a52isxr said:
custard":2a52isxr said:
......In essence they'll almost certainly migrate their business towards fitted furniture or joinery packages. .....
Or making multiples - stuff to sell rather than individually crafted, bespoke etc.
I don't know why woodworkers don't like this side of the business - I think they are hung up on a dubious romantic notion of how things should be done. As a result they end up teaching instead (and promulgating dubious romantic notions!)

Or to put it another way - virtually everything you own was made in multiples and not bespoke. I don't know anybody who would buy bespoke woodwork and I never have myself (except "fitted" kitchen is the nearest most people get to bespoke). So why does anybody think there is much of a market out there, particularly bearing in mind that bespoke can cost many times more than a production run?

this was my idea well a bit of a combination of the two, i have very limited space at the moment so i offer a product that you can but 'off the shelf' except that shelf is virtual, i then make it and sent to you. templates already made up and time has been minimalised by prior prep the customer knows what he/she/they are getting because of pics and a how i made this film.

thats the plan anyway good i n theory


just out of curiosity how have you been marketing your business?
Sounds interesting - photos?
A few local ads to start with, then word of mouth - until the internet kicked off then DIY website ever since.
The web is very different from any shop in that you can set up a web shop and sell just one thing (if that's all you have). Most extreme example I've seen so far is a geezer selling nothing but "guitar strap locks" - which are just tough rubber bottle top washers for the self brew trade. He seems to be doing OK!
 
custard":2e45ua0j said:
just out of curiosity how have you been marketing your business?
Sounds interesting - photos?
A few local ads to start with, then word of mouth - until the internet kicked off then DIY website ever since.
The web is very different from any shop in that you can set up a web shop and sell just one thing (if that's all you have). Most extreme example I've seen so far is a geezer selling nothing but "guitar strap locks" - which are just tough rubber bottle top washers for the self brew trade. He seems to be doing OK![/quote][/quote]


i aim to have about 25-30 products photographed and filmed making on the site but stock nothing just have all the kit to make it ready
 
Custard has made very good point about going from not making a comfortable living from making one off pieces to fitted furniture.

This is the way I have ended up going, and have had to expand from 1000sqft to 4000sqft as well as taking on staff and the headaches that creates, would I go back? Probably not.

We still make one off smaller bits, but could not survive with out the bread and butter work of the fitted stuff.
 
navypaul":egpc51cn said:
Togalosh":egpc51cn said:
IMHO

5) Couriers will smash &/or lose your goods all too often & you will be extremely lucky to get proper compensation.. if any.
7) Don't be too precious about the business. It is said that it is the 3rd business that is the success & highly unlikely that the 1st attempt is.

HTH
Togs

are couriers really that bad?
should i set all 3 up at once to save time??

paul

Yes. Palletline(*spit!*) once dropped a £3500 oven off a forklift onto it's roof. It came back to us squashed & they offered us £80 scrap metal value & danced a merry legal dance for months into years. I also found that no glass is insurable.

You might well succeed at the 1st attempt - who knows ? Business takes a hard (cold ?) heart & a level head so sentimentality has no place. I fail badly in 2:3 of those traits.

I do have regrets but only because it has spoilt family life. Failing is not to be ashamed of. Not trying is tricky reconcile.. but that could be ego messing with you.

Keep it simple- dead simple, keep the overheads down, don't overstretch y'self, know your limitations, don't allow ego to interfere in your decisions, always do the maths before quoting, commincate, don't believe people who ask for good rates now as there's more business later, a lot of "nice" people have absolutely no intention of paying or have absolutely no qualms about not paying... blahblahblah.

Good luck !.. & show us what you are doing please.

Togs
 
A lot of carriers will not insure furniture, so you need to do your home work.

The comment about your computer losing your accounts data is a bit odd as you should back it up and also most of these packages can be cloud based anyway.

We used spread sheets until this year when we got big enough to justify an accounts package and never had any major problems, I spoke to the accountants and found out from them how they wanted the data entered.

This has saved me a lot of money over the years as the accountant could do my year end and tax return easily with only a handful of questions.

We also did the VAT this way as well.

I know you can do your own accounts and tax return but a good accountant will save you time that you should be spending making things and not scratching your head about how income tax, capital allowances work, etc.
 
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