advice on which leather for strop
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Corneel
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I have always wondered, what does a strop do?
I use an 8000 waterstone as my finest, and don't strop. But I also have some oilstones, and am not happy with the results, so I'd like to invest some time into learning how to strop. It would be helpfull to know what happens when you strop.
I use an 8000 waterstone as my finest, and don't strop. But I also have some oilstones, and am not happy with the results, so I'd like to invest some time into learning how to strop. It would be helpfull to know what happens when you strop.
Well on a practical level (and what I've noticed over the years): I can shave hairs after the 8,000 but there's a touch of 'grab', in other words you can actually feel the blade cutting the hair. Strop/Polish after the 8,000 and you should merely see the hairs being cut, not feel them.
Stropping after honing is simply removing rag left by one's finest stone; anything over 8,000 grit equivalent really leaves no rag. Stropping between honing is straightening an edge that has started to go off. This takes more skill than a couple of swipes to drag off rag. It's probably easier just to go back to one's finest stone for a quick touchup. Removing rag requires nothing more than a slightly abrasive, completely untreated material. Leather is often chosen. It can impart some polish as it contains silica.
Adding an abrasive is not at all compulsory for stropping to remove rag. If using over 8,000 grit equivalent stones then there is no rag to remove and stropping, per se, is completely unnecessary. If you want to polish up a tad bit then use a strop paste like Dovo, a cream-based metal polish, a dry abrasive, etc., or buff briefly on a wheel charged with a green wax chromium/oxide stick. The oxide in the stick is aluminum oxide which is available in the dry. You can charge leather with the dry powder or a flat piece of hard wood like maple. Your choice.
Buffing on a linen, muslin, or compressed felt wheel with a wax stick (you actually might not want to charge compressed felt) gives the best result, by far, once learned. If you want to hand strop by all means do it. Just consider using an appropriate dressing for hand powered stropping. Or none at all.
The wax stick is a great product. Just use it on a buffing wheel. If you think it does a good job on a hand strop wait until you try it on wheel. The pastes give a better result for hand powered stropping.
If you're concerned that a very fine stropping or even polishing compound might have a higher grit equivalency than your finest stone, then the whole exercise no matter what you call it - stropping, buffing, or polishing is probably moot. All you are experiencing at that point is likely the placebo effect. You have a very fine stone and the edge is unlikely to be improved at all by any further treatment. In that case I would simply say, enjoy it, your investment in very fine honing media is paying off. Don't waste time, money, and effort at a buffer, strop, or anything else.
Clear enough?
Adding an abrasive is not at all compulsory for stropping to remove rag. If using over 8,000 grit equivalent stones then there is no rag to remove and stropping, per se, is completely unnecessary. If you want to polish up a tad bit then use a strop paste like Dovo, a cream-based metal polish, a dry abrasive, etc., or buff briefly on a wheel charged with a green wax chromium/oxide stick. The oxide in the stick is aluminum oxide which is available in the dry. You can charge leather with the dry powder or a flat piece of hard wood like maple. Your choice.
Buffing on a linen, muslin, or compressed felt wheel with a wax stick (you actually might not want to charge compressed felt) gives the best result, by far, once learned. If you want to hand strop by all means do it. Just consider using an appropriate dressing for hand powered stropping. Or none at all.
The wax stick is a great product. Just use it on a buffing wheel. If you think it does a good job on a hand strop wait until you try it on wheel. The pastes give a better result for hand powered stropping.
If you're concerned that a very fine stropping or even polishing compound might have a higher grit equivalency than your finest stone, then the whole exercise no matter what you call it - stropping, buffing, or polishing is probably moot. All you are experiencing at that point is likely the placebo effect. You have a very fine stone and the edge is unlikely to be improved at all by any further treatment. In that case I would simply say, enjoy it, your investment in very fine honing media is paying off. Don't waste time, money, and effort at a buffer, strop, or anything else.
Clear enough?
Corneel
Established Member
Thanks.
What would you use after a translucent arkansas? A bare or a treated leather stop?
And what in between honings on the stone?
The oilstones are for gouges and such, and for cold weather, when using waterstones freezes my fingers.
What would you use after a translucent arkansas? A bare or a treated leather stop?
And what in between honings on the stone?
The oilstones are for gouges and such, and for cold weather, when using waterstones freezes my fingers.
Lons
Established Member
Yebut....I don't use a strop for that reason. The chisel after fine stone is easily sharp enough for my personal needs. What the strop does for me is 2 things (remember I'm talking carving chisels especially).
1). Stropping polishes the bevel which is important when cutting hardwoods as it "slides" through the timber more easily and leaves a polished surface on the cut.
2). Using it regularly by touching it up whilst working keeps the edge cutting for longer between sharpening.
Works for me, but each to his own and not worth arguing about surely
Bob
Fromey":cvcoz8p9 said:
I'm sure I read somewhere that, at a tiny level, the stylus of a record player melts a portion of the groove as it passes over it due to the tracking force being concentrated onto the stylus point....
Lons":2xwg7ati said:
Yebut....I don't use a strop for that reason. The chisel after fine stone is easily sharp enough for my personal needs. What the strop does for me is 2 things (remember I'm talking carving chisels especially).
1). Stropping polishes the bevel which is important when cutting hardwoods as it "slides" through the timber more easily and leaves a polished surface on the cut.
2). Using it regularly by touching it up whilst working keeps the edge cutting for longer between sharpening.
Works for me, but each to his own and not worth arguing about surely
Bob
Well, not really IMO (and others, see link below). Stropping to remove rag and the vestiges of a burr are best done without the insinuation of a polishing media beyond that found in the leather itself. Stropping to remove rag and burr are not necessary with any media over an 8,000 grit equivalent. This bears constant repeating. It's probably not even necessary to impart any additional polish but if you insist:
If you need to polish metal, then get a two-sided barber's stop (leather and canvas). Ignore the leather side except for spanking your children or grandchildren as it might apply. Charge the canvas side with Dovo gray paste and polish to your heart's content.
Or charge a wheel with a wax stick, clearly the fastest way to a high polish. Mere seconds. Touch tool to the wheel, bevel side only. Say your full name and street address aloud. You're done.
http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html
Maurice Fraser:
"The purpose of stropping is not to abrade more metal, but rather to continue bending, flexing, fatiguing, and burnishing off the miniscule metal strands still clinging to the edge of the blade after the burr breaks off. If you sharpen with waterstones and use a "gold" 8000 grit stone as a final step, stropping is not necessary." End quote.
8,000 grit has become quaint, to say the least, since he wrote the article and authored the DVD below:
http://www.amazon.com/Sharpening-Woodwo ... ice+fraser
Racers
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Well that's his opinion, its not mine I use Autosol on the smooth side of leather and it gives a better finish (shiner) than 8000 grit and a sharper tool.
The thing is we all do things differently but end up making our tools sharp.
Pete
The thing is we all do things differently but end up making our tools sharp.
Pete
Racers":1bkdhch7 said:
No arguments from me. At least you realize that you're polishing and not stropping, and using an appropriate compound for doing it by hand, rather than the wax buffing sticks.
You'd get better results on felt or linen but if you like smooth leather then don't change a thing.
The effect from polishing is very fleeting, but you can keep going back for more. Polishing an incompletely finished edge is like wearing cologne after two weeks of not bathing. If you're using an 8,000 grit stone then your edges are 'finished' by any reasonable standard. Polishing up is a bit of icing on the cake.
Lons
Established Member
CStanford":24f07pv4 said:
Well I'm exactly the same as Pete and I don't agree with your analogy of wearing cologne which is a ridiculous comparison IMHO, (I said I wasn't going to argue #-o ).
I polish the bevel for the reasons I stated and when the edge loses it's sharpness I soon know when it's time to use the stone. I strop by hand (mostly) because it's quick and convenient, I own a Tormek T7 so have an excellent means of powered leather wheel should I so desire.
As I said - each to his own - we all use the method that we've found works for us and whilst I try to keep an open mind there seems to be a hell of a lot of over complication and bullsh*t flying around sometimes.
Unless you're a sharpening freak or a student doing a thesis on the relationship of a steel edge to abrasive then if the tool cuts the way you want it to, what's the problem?
Bob
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Well said Bob +1 for keeping it simple and whatever works for you. Hands strops have been used for generations for good reasons they work.
Peter
Peter
Lons":3gauhfji said:
I've read your post and I don't think we disagree on a single point. I polish too. I'm not a sharpening freak at all. I hone for a burr on a No. 1 Washita, then move to a Black Ark, and then *most times* to the strop. I usually have to strop. A black Ark is just not fine enough, for chisels certainly not. I don't always strop a jack plane iron. I charge a hard rubber strop with AlOx powder which is a fantastic polishing media. I mentioned this in an earlier post in this thread. I easily have less than $200 invested in my entire sharpening kit, including decrepit Craftsman 6" grinder. Pretty simple. Pretty minimalist. I probably have the simplest kit for honing of anybody who has posted in this thread.
I have honed with very fine media - lapping films and sandpaper. They did a good job put I just felt a tug to go back to the stones. When honing on these products the strop added nothing at all. It was more apt to ruin what was accomplished on the finest film.
bugbear
Established Member
CStanford":1gsg415j said:
If we're playing the inverse snobbery game, I think I'm going to win. My normal shaprneing kit cost me around 10 GPB (*)
BugBear
(hand grinder, oilstones and and a "loose abrasive system", all second hand from car boot sales at 1 or 2 quid a piece)
bugbear
Established Member
CStanford":2yyguivh said:
I'm assuming that's the mechanism of stropping that you believe; thanks for the information. I will point out that "burnishing" is quite unlike the other actions he lists.
BugBear
Bernard Jones (ed.) in The Complete Woodworker states:
"After the oil has been wiped off, the tool should be stropped to remove any wire edge that may still exist and make the surfaces of the tool smooth, and therefore give it a keener edge. Some workmen have a knack of stropping it on the palm of their hand, but beginners are not advised to attempt it. Instead, they should use a strap [sic?] dressed with crocus powder and tallow." End quote.
So, stropping on the palm apparently could be considered sufficient (it probably is in plenty of cases) but beginners are not encouraged to do so presumably to prevent the possibility of cuts.
Crocus powder (iron oxide/ferric oxide) and tallow probably make a fine strop dressing. I don't see anything about adding wax in the Jones reference.
From our friends at Wikipedia (I assume this substance is what Jones is referring to) sounds like it would do a bang-up job:
"A very fine powder of ferric oxide is known as "jeweler's rouge", "red rouge", or simply rouge. It is used to put the final polish on metallic jewelry and lenses, and historically as a cosmetic. Rouge cuts more slowly than some modern polishes, such as cerium(IV) oxide, but is still used in optics fabrication and by jewelers for the superior finish it can produce. When polishing gold, the rouge slightly stains the gold, which contributes to the appearance of the finished piece. Rouge is sold as a powder, paste, laced on polishing cloths, or solid bar (with a wax or grease binder). Other polishing compounds are also often called "rouge", even when they do not contain iron oxide. Jewelers remove the residual rouge on jewelry by use of ultrasonic cleaning. Products sold as "stropping compound" are often applied to a leather strop to assist in getting a razor edge on knives, straight razors, or any other edged tool."
Here's how to use jeweler's rouge that comes in stick form. It is applied to a wheel:
http://www.pjtool.com/jewelers-rouge-po ... pound.aspx
"After the oil has been wiped off, the tool should be stropped to remove any wire edge that may still exist and make the surfaces of the tool smooth, and therefore give it a keener edge. Some workmen have a knack of stropping it on the palm of their hand, but beginners are not advised to attempt it. Instead, they should use a strap [sic?] dressed with crocus powder and tallow." End quote.
So, stropping on the palm apparently could be considered sufficient (it probably is in plenty of cases) but beginners are not encouraged to do so presumably to prevent the possibility of cuts.
Crocus powder (iron oxide/ferric oxide) and tallow probably make a fine strop dressing. I don't see anything about adding wax in the Jones reference.
From our friends at Wikipedia (I assume this substance is what Jones is referring to) sounds like it would do a bang-up job:
"A very fine powder of ferric oxide is known as "jeweler's rouge", "red rouge", or simply rouge. It is used to put the final polish on metallic jewelry and lenses, and historically as a cosmetic. Rouge cuts more slowly than some modern polishes, such as cerium(IV) oxide, but is still used in optics fabrication and by jewelers for the superior finish it can produce. When polishing gold, the rouge slightly stains the gold, which contributes to the appearance of the finished piece. Rouge is sold as a powder, paste, laced on polishing cloths, or solid bar (with a wax or grease binder). Other polishing compounds are also often called "rouge", even when they do not contain iron oxide. Jewelers remove the residual rouge on jewelry by use of ultrasonic cleaning. Products sold as "stropping compound" are often applied to a leather strop to assist in getting a razor edge on knives, straight razors, or any other edged tool."
Here's how to use jeweler's rouge that comes in stick form. It is applied to a wheel:
http://www.pjtool.com/jewelers-rouge-po ... pound.aspx
G S Haydon
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mac1012":23bfbaw9 said:
To find mine I went to our local saddlers and asked if they had an off cut suitable to make a strop. They showed me a piece of leather and I said it looked about right. I said how much, they said two pounds. I bought it, dabbed a bit of autosol on it, used it, it worked. Next......
That's good and so treated is probably still easily identifiable at quick glance as an actual piece of leather (and not a growing blob of green stuff) and retains the efficacy that comes with a good piece of leather.
Lons
Established Member
I bet the OP is confused now! :wink:
His straightforward question results in quotes from old publications and Wikipedia which are after all just third party opinions and certainly not gospel.
If, I for one wanted to read such articles (and I have read several) then I would take the time to look them up myself. If I want purely personal opinion and experience then I ask on here where it's usually forthcoming and genuine answers from knowlegeable members without all the extra baggage that seems occasionally to surface and appears tobe purely for the sake of argument.
It isn't rocket science and the bottom line as already stated is if it works use it - simple. Stropping works and IMO works better with a mild abrasive. Any subtle differences probably wouldn't be noticed by most people and definitely not a beginner.
This thread has become extremely boring and not one I'll be contributing to again though it might be interesting to see who can't resist the last word :wink:
Bob
His straightforward question results in quotes from old publications and Wikipedia which are after all just third party opinions and certainly not gospel.
If, I for one wanted to read such articles (and I have read several) then I would take the time to look them up myself. If I want purely personal opinion and experience then I ask on here where it's usually forthcoming and genuine answers from knowlegeable members without all the extra baggage that seems occasionally to surface and appears tobe purely for the sake of argument.
It isn't rocket science and the bottom line as already stated is if it works use it - simple. Stropping works and IMO works better with a mild abrasive. Any subtle differences probably wouldn't be noticed by most people and definitely not a beginner.
This thread has become extremely boring and not one I'll be contributing to again though it might be interesting to see who can't resist the last word :wink:
Bob
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