Do hand sharpeners burn their toast?

[Uncle Bulgaria]

The wife and I were having a cuppa in a local cafe yesterday morning.
The toast was burnt, a not infrequent event in that establishment. "Why doesn't Seamus (the owner and cook) just buy a toaster?" my wife asked the waitress. "He thinks it's unprofessional to need one, a chef should be able to cook toast under the grill " was the gist of the reply.

That set me thinking, what other activities are there where professionals insist on using a technique, time consuming to learn and difficult for beginners to master, yet a device exists which gives perfect results every time for even a beginner for marginally more effort.

Don't worry, I'm not going to mention sharpening at all - I know better than to stir that puddle. :lol:

Actually my first thought was cambered jointer plane irons versus a straight iron and fence. I notice that Veritas are now selling add-on fences (with fancy rare earth magnets and brass clips to hold the fence to the plane) but at very fancy prices. I've always managed with bits of wood screwed or clamped to my planes. The first time I saw the idea online it was demonstrated with a 4" G-clamp holding the fence onto the plane.

Just wondering if I'm missing other techniques which would help an aspiring amateur?

One thing which caught my eye recently is the Veritas system of saw guides for different purposes, one for tenons, another for dovetails. The basic structure of each seems to be a clamp with a magnetic side and a low friction coating to hold and guide a saw.

I’ve never had too much trouble cutting joints where I can scribe a line across with a knife and use a chisel to define a starting trench ( as described by amongst others Bob Wearing, Paul Sellers and Christopher Schwartz) but I’ve always had difficulty with dovetails. Anyone care to weigh in to say if the Veritas dovetail guide
a) makes the process any easier
b) is worth the rather large sum they ask for it
c) requires the Veritas saws (which would put it well outside my budget)
d) is easy to align to the cutting line ?

Thanks

 

[ED65]

Obligatory: there'll likely to be someone along shortly to tell you that you don't need a guide, guides are crutches, it's better for everyone to work freehand etc.

a) Undoubtedly.
b) I'd have to say no. I'm not at all against guides for marking out or sawing dovetails if someone wants to use one that's totally up to them, but you can make a DIY version in an evening that'll do the job just as well. And in addition to the satisfaction of using a guide/jig/tool you made yourself that works sweetly the process of making them is good experience not to be wasted IMHO. Wearing would agree needless to say
c) I wouldn't think so.
d) Should be a doddle, you just get used to the required standoff and fix it accordingly.

 

[Trafalgar]

David Barron makes a dovetail guide:

http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk/d ... _tools.asp

You can make your own bit of a chunky guide out of wood and simply register the saw against it. I'll post a PDF of plans for one in a bit. It'll work with any dovetail or small tenon saw. It's basically David Barron's guide made from wood -- plans from an old-ish book from the now defunct Rodale Press.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I use the Veritas dovetail guide and will continue to do so until the day comes when I've acquired the skills to repeatedly cut them well freehand. To answer your questions:

a. Yes. I found that I just had to tune in to exactly where the marked line has to be in relation to the edge of the guide.
b. The answer to that is that it's all relative. It stopped me chucking away wood, although I'm not sure if it will pay for itself. What you do get for your money is the ability to cut bang-on dovetails fairly quickly which means that you can get around that particular brick wall and do other things. In short: I think that for a beginner, the price is justifiable because of what you gain.
c. Not necessarily. Any back saw which is deep enough so that the back doesn't hit the guide before the cut bottoms out will do. Or you can get a Japanese thingy (su-doku or whatever they're called) which I have and which does the trick.
e. Dead easy (see a. above) but it's a good idea to spend 20 mins with a couple of bits of scrap to get the feel for it. IMO it's inevitable that if you cut a row of, say, ten tails, then two pins will need a bit of a pare.

The good news is that the guide is an enabler for cutting tip-top dovetails and there's nothing to stop one practising cutting them freehand in the meantime in order to not need the guide (which I personally think is a good idea as developing skills should never stop). What I'm finding nowadays is that I'm using the guide for the first 1/8" of the cut and then removing it and carrying on freehand.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I completely understand people who want to spend money on a guide system that's your choice. When I started woodworking 6 years ago we had just had a baby and I wasnt in a particularly good job so couldn't afford fancy tools, as a result I made my first few projects with a 102 plane, 4 rubbish draper chisels and a JCB panel saw. When the time came I fancied making dovetails I had a 10" marpels saw that I got from ebay for £1, that I had taught myself to sharpen with a cheap needle file (not being able to afford a proper saw file) I also had a beat up sliding bevel my father in law had given me. Those first set of dovetails we not pretty they had gaps and were generally rough but they held tight once glued.

As time went on I changed jobs and could afford a proper dovetail saw and I made myself a dovetail marker. I really do think that learning the hard way if you like had served me well, since then I have made a couple of dovetailed boxes and 2 chests, each time I make dovetails they get better and better. By no means am I a dovetail master but I'd like to think I can knock out some pretty fine dovetails in reasonable time all without the need for "expensive" guides.

In summary guides are fine if thats what you want/can afford, are they necessary, not at all. As with most things practice is key making dovetails doesn't take up a lot of wood, 2 pieces 6" wide by 12" long would yield at least 8 sets and in pine that costs less than a guide system.

Matt

 

[John15]

I completely understand people who want to spend money on a guide system that's your choice. When I started woodworking 6 years ago we had just had a baby and I wasnt in a particularly good job so couldn't afford fancy tools, as a result I made my first few projects with a 102 plane, 4 rubbish draper chisels and a JCB panel saw. When the time came I fancied making dovetails I had a 10" marpels saw that I got from ebay for £1, that I had taught myself to sharpen with a cheap needle file (not being able to afford a proper saw file) I also had a beat up sliding bevel my father in law had given me. Those first set of dovetails we not pretty they had gaps and were generally rough but they held tight once glued.

As time went on I changed jobs and could afford a proper dovetail saw and I made myself a dovetail marker. I really do think that learning the hard way if you like had served me well, since then I have made a couple of dovetailed boxes and 2 chests, each time I make dovetails they get better and better. By no means am I a dovetail master but I'd like to think I can knock out some pretty fine dovetails in reasonable time all without the need for "expensive" guides.

In summary guides are fine if thats what you want/can afford, are they necessary, not at all. As with most things practice is key making dovetails doesn't take up a lot of wood, 2 pieces 6" wide by 12" long would yield at least 8 sets and in pine that costs less than a guide system.

Matt

I agree with Matt. I practiced freehand and can now produce OK-ish dovetails with of course still room for improvement. The freehand journey has been very rewarding and if beginners to dovetailing have the patience and time then that's the way to go.

John

 

[Andy Kev.]

I've got nothing but respect for Matt's approach. My problem was that I was starting with absolutely zero experience and no chance of getting tuition and I think that in cases like that a guide can save an awful lot of frustration. And I think it's probably a fact that the only harm using a guide can do is to lead you to slow down when it comes to acquiring free hand skills but I can live with that in the case of dovetails.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm sure that the pro's of this parish would use every aid available if they thought for one moment their end product would be in any way improved - the only thing that really matters is the end product. Most of us do not do enough to become top class - that's the end of it, really. The downside of aids really is that obviously they do deter you from practicing - you don't need to.
Of course we are all different, some of us do things perfectly successfully in ways that others wouldn't contemplate - I remember setting a plane by touch (I was about 12) and the master taking it out of my hand, sighting it, grunting, and handing it back. After about half a dozen times of repeating this he handed it back and said that's the wrong way to do it, but it works perfectly well for you, so carry on with it. Fifty years later I can't set a plane any other way than by touch.

 

[dzj]

Basic WW techniques are not that time consuming to learn.
If you're not motorically impaired because of some medical condition, you don't need any 'crutches'.
As to why Seamus burns his toast, there could be a number of reasons.
Dementia, understaffed, he's a klutz...who knows

 

[custard]

Fact, there is no consensus amongst professional furniture makers on how to cut dovetails.

Some use jigs, some don't.
Some gang up drawer sides, some cut them individually.
Some cut dovetails in thinner stock by hand, but use jigs or aids for dovetails in really thick stock.
Some use a bandsaw, tablesaw or router, especially to cut the tails.
Some cut dovetails straight from the saw, others cut to the waste side and pare to the line (actually this seems to be the really big divide amongst the makers I know).
Some cut tails first, some cut pins first.

However, if push comes to shove every professional furniture maker I've met is perfectly capable of cutting a reasonable dovetail by hand and straight from the saw. So even though many choose other methods, they still have the skills and confidence to do the job the old fashioned way. And that's an important distinction.

If you're a hobbyist woodworker I'd argue you should take a deep breath and try cutting dovetails entirely by hand. They probably won't be perfect, but unlike most other joints they'll still be strong and serviceable even if they don't look immaculate.

And here's the most important point, you actually need dovetails for many other furniture making applications besides drawer sides. However, the aids and jigs out there are primarily designed for drawer sides, and so they struggle to accommodate things like the rail that sits above the drawer on a side table, which in good quality work is always dovetailed into the top of the legs. Therefore, if you're completely dependent on jigs, then you're incapable of tacking these other dovetail applications. And it seems to me that if you can't make a simple side table to a decent standard then, hobbyist or professional, you can't really claim to be a furniture maker.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[bugbear]

I use every aid I can when saw sharpening,
to improve the quality of my saws.

I am aware that I simply do not sharpen
saws often enough to keep up the skills I'd need without
aids. And unless I set myself up as a free saw sharpener
for the town, this situation will not change.

So I keep using the aids. I see no practical alternative.

I'm guessing Pedder doesn't need such things.

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

I guess you never tasted toast from the bbq? That's really another legue of toast enjoyment! You have to keep at it though, they are black before you can blink your eyes.

 

[woodenstx]

I guess you never tasted toast from the bbq? That's really another legue of toast enjoyment! You have to keep at it though, they are black before you can blink your eyes.

Ohhh thats so happening on my next BBQ


As for Dovetails, I've not made anything purposeful with them yet but I've had a go at making them without a marking/guide system and yes they had gaps but even without glue they were far from coming apart I honestly believe that even with a guide/jig I'd likely net the same gappy results as my general skills arent upto much (yet). I am really enjoying the use of hand tools much more than before.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I use a sharpening guide but like to cut my dovetails by hand. I feel once you get used to using your saw you can then put it to good use on whatever cut or joint woodworking throughs your way.

Cheers Peter

 

[nabs]

I guess you never tasted toast from the bbq? That's really another legue of toast enjoyment! You have to keep at it though, they are black before you can blink your eyes.

this is a very important point Corneel - my Uncle Dick showed me a top tip, which is to make a toasted cheese and onion sandwich on the BBQ a couple of hours after the main heat has dissipated. It is the best cheese and onion sandwich you will ever eat, guaranteed!

PS if you are worried about cheese related leakage, you can wrap it in tin foil first, but I do not think it would count as 'toasted' anymore.

 

[Corneel]

Yummie!

First time I did toasting on the barbeque was on a camping trip and it was meant to be used as a starter, so the heat was pretty strong! It took a few tries, but with some fresh tomatoes and olive oil, hmmm.

Which shows, a more "freehand" approach opens up a lot of possibilities.

 

[AJB Temple]

I don't make enough things requiring dovetails to merit using jigs or special tools. As a consequence, I have never cut a dovetail except by hand. My training ground was fitting necks into guitars, which used a dovetail joint. Screwing this up was expensive and I had no money, so I learnt pretty quickly how to do it. I suspect I can cut dovetails for a single drawer quicker than I could set up a jig.

 

[G S Haydon]

From a perspective of just getting things done, as a home woodworker, just do what you want. It makes no odds. The resultant product is likely of greater value than any concerns over guides

However, as Custard pointed out, if you want to view yourself as be a high quality worker, it is near essential you learn to do a wide variety of work, a good foundation if you will, by hand. I can't quote Joyce directly, but he describes it in a similar way as Custard. The reason is to avoid being limited in your work. At the same time though, you can't master everything in the field.

I think when working at home, you should make the process enjoyable in whatever form that takes.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I've got nothing but respect for Matt's approach. My problem was that I was starting with absolutely zero experience and no chance of getting tuition and I think that in cases like that a guide can save an awful lot of frustration. And I think it's probably a fact that the only harm using a guide can do is to lead you to slow down when it comes to acquiring free hand skills but I can live with that in the case of dovetails.

I also started with zero experience (when I was at school woodworking consisted of hot gluing pieces of chipboard together), the only tuition I had was books and this forum. I agree a guide could save the frustration, but to me the frustration I experienced made me a better woodworker, it gave me the ability to analyze what I had done and where I could have possibly gone wrong and more importantly how to correct it.

I really truly believe that it is a mindset of the modern era, everyone seems to want everything instantly and for it to be perfect first time instead of making mistakes and learning from them, hence the market for these sorts of guides. 150 years ago there was one hell of a lot more hand tool woodworking going on than there is now (admittedly the hand tool woodworking now is more of a hobbyist thing than a professional way of working) and yet we see no/very little evidence of the plethora of jigs now available, this isn't because they couldn't make them because they could have if they wanted to, it's because they didnt see the need for such things. They developed the skills which enabled them to do the job without, these skills also are translatable into other areas of woodworking so for me are invaluable.

Matt

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I agree with your sentiments about people wanting pain free ways to get things done quickly theses days. Part of the fun in learning are the frustrations encountered along the way. If it were easy, who would want to do it?

However, I'm certain lots of the jigs we have nowadays are only possible with modern technology. Even with our modern pressures of too little time with too much to do, driving us to want to take the path of least resistance, we are not that different to people 150 years ago. Piece work was more common, and any aid to make production quicker, neater, more efficient, would have been adopted. In the age of iron, think about all the industrious machines that would have done the work of teams of hand workers. It is not that craftsmen (their empolyers, actually) wouldn't have welcomed these modern aids to shortcuts, it is just that they wouldn't have been short enough. A dovetailing guide might have an effect on a craftsman's productivity; but a Brookman cutter would have done the job of 10 by one man with less skill than any of them.

Also, neodimium magnets, UHMW polyethylene and pressure die cast, anodised aluminium might have a lot to do with the latest gadgets being completely beyond the scope of our ancestors. Technology push....

Mike.