Please exscuse my repetition of this type of question but i am in a bit of a quandry. I am a kitchen fitter for a living and wish to renovate my current kitchen by making my own doors panels and cornice etc from oak. I realise that i will need a good table saw for a large amount of this work and noticed a 240v Robland e300 with a 1700 sliding table on Felders Website for £1500. When i rang them up it had gone and they have since quoted me for a new Hammer K3 winner with a 1250 sliding table (though i will probably want it bigger) at £2350 which is beggining to stretch my budget. Does anyone have experience of any of these machines or manufacturers or could they recommend any others that i may have missed. This saw would start the beginings of my workshop as i have a dewalt 708 chop saw and a 1850 dewalt Router spare which i plan to build into a table. Finally I am presuming that with a bigger sliding table this assists in ripping sheets but does it hinder you to cutting smaller peices and does the outrigger fold away or get in the way when working. I havent seen any of these tools in action yet and will have a good play with them before emptying the piggy bank. Thanks for all your patience.
Table saw Purchase choices
- Thread starter Riggly
- Start date
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sorry i forgot to add the links to the advertising blurb about both saws
http://www.jayceetools.co.uk/robland_e300.html
http://mk.felder-gruppe.at/?page=maschi ... 9da0a11dec
http://www.jayceetools.co.uk/robland_e300.html
http://mk.felder-gruppe.at/?page=maschi ... 9da0a11dec
johnnyb
Established Member
both machines you mention sound on the industrial side of home workshop is this a business venture?!! do you have plenty of space? ripping and crosscutting panels requires unbeleivable amounts of room around the saw. hence the popularity of vertical saws(wall saws). making cornice and panel doors will need, as you mention a router table. 1250 is sized to crosscut 8 by 4 and is a useful amount. the robland universals i have used have always been good.
Hi Riggly and welcome to the forum.
If you are thinking only about making your own doors I'd say that a saw which could rip solid timber would be a lot more important than one which can handle panels, especially as you already have the necessary capacity to crosscut using your SCMS. I'd also say that if you want to start from rough sawn stock you'll really need to think in terms of a planer/thicknesser and about building a router table to produce your cornices and do moulding, "cope and stick" doors, etc. In that case the saw requirements are a lot less than a slider.
If on the other hand you are looking to subsequently manufacture kitchen units you'll need to be able to rip at least 8ft long sheets of MFC and for that the length of your sliding table starts to become significant. If that is your intention I'd strongly recommend trying to get a 2.5metre sliding table if budget and space permits. From experience moving-up from a 1.5 metre sliding carraige saw to a 2.5metre Altendorf sliding table machine a number of years back was a major change for the better, at least in terms of sheet materials handling. The longer sliding carraige allows you to do true squaring and parallel cuts faster and more accurately than a smaller saw will and supporting the sheet is not an issue with the longer sliding carraige machines as that's what they're designed to do. The downside is that a 2.5metre (8ft) machine will require a footprint of at least 20ft x 14ft to accommodate it when you are processing sheet stock. The other thing you will need to look for if you are going to machine any quantity of MFC or MF-MDF (and to a lesser extent veneered MDF) is a scoring unit. Yes, you can get by with high AT blades, but their performance isn't really up to that of an ATB/scorer combination in my experience. Furthermore they have a much shorter life on the machine than a proper 2-blade solution (i.e. they blunt mucjh more quickly) and you won't get nearly as many sharpenings out of them. Lastly when looking for a machine to do sheet work having a sliding carraige immediately to the left of the saw blade, rather than a sliding table outboard of a conventional table, is a much better option, in part because it reduces the amount of operator fatigue from constantly pushing sheet stock across the saw!
As regards the makes, the Robland E300 is regarded as a light-industrial machine and is a generally more robust machine than the Hammer K3. Felder Group themselves regard the Hammer range as an up-market hobby machine rather than a proper light industrial machine - for that you need to go up to a Felder K700 or K900 series. Having looked at the Hammer and Felder machiunes I think I'd agree that the Hammer won't really cut the mustard in a commercial environment. If you want to look for new machines a couple of other firms in the market are Rojek, Startrite (who sell badged Rojeks) and SCM-MiniMax, although to get a "full-size" sliding table in a new machine will break your budget. That therefore begs the question, have you considered secondhand?
For anyone interested there is an American comparison of the Felder, Rojek and Powermatic saws here which might make interesting reading
Scrit
If you are thinking only about making your own doors I'd say that a saw which could rip solid timber would be a lot more important than one which can handle panels, especially as you already have the necessary capacity to crosscut using your SCMS. I'd also say that if you want to start from rough sawn stock you'll really need to think in terms of a planer/thicknesser and about building a router table to produce your cornices and do moulding, "cope and stick" doors, etc. In that case the saw requirements are a lot less than a slider.
If on the other hand you are looking to subsequently manufacture kitchen units you'll need to be able to rip at least 8ft long sheets of MFC and for that the length of your sliding table starts to become significant. If that is your intention I'd strongly recommend trying to get a 2.5metre sliding table if budget and space permits. From experience moving-up from a 1.5 metre sliding carraige saw to a 2.5metre Altendorf sliding table machine a number of years back was a major change for the better, at least in terms of sheet materials handling. The longer sliding carraige allows you to do true squaring and parallel cuts faster and more accurately than a smaller saw will and supporting the sheet is not an issue with the longer sliding carraige machines as that's what they're designed to do. The downside is that a 2.5metre (8ft) machine will require a footprint of at least 20ft x 14ft to accommodate it when you are processing sheet stock. The other thing you will need to look for if you are going to machine any quantity of MFC or MF-MDF (and to a lesser extent veneered MDF) is a scoring unit. Yes, you can get by with high AT blades, but their performance isn't really up to that of an ATB/scorer combination in my experience. Furthermore they have a much shorter life on the machine than a proper 2-blade solution (i.e. they blunt mucjh more quickly) and you won't get nearly as many sharpenings out of them. Lastly when looking for a machine to do sheet work having a sliding carraige immediately to the left of the saw blade, rather than a sliding table outboard of a conventional table, is a much better option, in part because it reduces the amount of operator fatigue from constantly pushing sheet stock across the saw!
As regards the makes, the Robland E300 is regarded as a light-industrial machine and is a generally more robust machine than the Hammer K3. Felder Group themselves regard the Hammer range as an up-market hobby machine rather than a proper light industrial machine - for that you need to go up to a Felder K700 or K900 series. Having looked at the Hammer and Felder machiunes I think I'd agree that the Hammer won't really cut the mustard in a commercial environment. If you want to look for new machines a couple of other firms in the market are Rojek, Startrite (who sell badged Rojeks) and SCM-MiniMax, although to get a "full-size" sliding table in a new machine will break your budget. That therefore begs the question, have you considered secondhand?
A bigger sliding table does indeed get in the way of sawing solid stock. My F45 has a 3.2metre (10ft) table, and even with the outboard support removed and the support arm folded back the fact that the end of the sliding table protrudes at the front (and rear) of the saw can make ripping small stock a complete PITA at times because it is often necessary to lean over the slider. On the other hand using a ripping foot straight-line edging of waney edge stock is a breeze.Riggly":24twobyv said:
For anyone interested there is an American comparison of the Felder, Rojek and Powermatic saws here which might make interesting reading
The guys I bought my last Altendorf were going that way - the had bought a Holz-Her panel saw to reduce the footprint. The downsides to wall saws is that they don't do solid timber well or accurately and that they require about 9ft of ceiling height to get them into most placesjohnnyb":24twobyv said:
Scrit
Thanks for the welcome and sorry about the links
my garage is 6m wide and 8m long although it does house my double cab, my trailer and my other car. i was hoping that the saw would fit onto a wheeled base and could be moved into the middle of the shop when doing bigger cuts once the cars etc were out of the way. It is not planned for it to become a business in the short term but i would like it to become a hobby that could turn a penny in the future when i am tired of throwing worktops around.
my garage is 6m wide and 8m long although it does house my double cab, my trailer and my other car. i was hoping that the saw would fit onto a wheeled base and could be moved into the middle of the shop when doing bigger cuts once the cars etc were out of the way. It is not planned for it to become a business in the short term but i would like it to become a hobby that could turn a penny in the future when i am tired of throwing worktops around.
Thanks scrit for all all the advice. There obviously has to be a compromise somewhere along the line but i am pleased to find that the Robland is better than the Hammer. I would prefer a secondand machine as i think i would get more bang for my buck so i will have to continue trawling the net. The scoring blade is a facility that sounds a very important attribute as even ripping ply would generate some degree of breakout i presume. I need to go a play with some and get a feel.
ProShop
Established Member
Hi Riggly,
Have you thought of a saw/spindle moulder combi machine as you mention you want to make kitchen doors, cornice etc. IMHO a spindle moulder is a much better bet than a router table & since your looking for a big table saw ............. and you get a lot more bang for your buck.
As Scrit mentions Felder market the Hammer as essentially a hobby / enthusiast machines especially since the launch last year of the 500 series. Have you looked at the 500 series by the way??.
I've owned a Felder 700 saw/spindle moulder with 2500mm sliding table for over 2 years now and it's the dogs doo dah's. Felder make the best professional combi machines on the planet, but with a price tag to match.
As Scrit mentions a 2550mm sliding table is a minimum for cutting 8' x 4' mfc etc on a regular basis with a scoring unit.
There's been a couple on Ebay recently and also on the Felder website, but you'll need to keep an eye on their site as they sell very quickly. My machines were only on the web site for 2 days recently and I had 4 enquirers & sold to the first person.
As to does the long slider hinder you when ripping small pieces, I can honestly say I've not found it an issue as the ourigger comes off in seconds and the arm folds to the side of the machine and held magnetically, a nice touch.
There's also been some nice panel saws on ebay recently, might be worth having a look there also.
Have you thought of a saw/spindle moulder combi machine as you mention you want to make kitchen doors, cornice etc. IMHO a spindle moulder is a much better bet than a router table & since your looking for a big table saw ............. and you get a lot more bang for your buck
. As Scrit mentions Felder market the Hammer as essentially a hobby / enthusiast machines especially since the launch last year of the 500 series. Have you looked at the 500 series by the way??.
I've owned a Felder 700 saw/spindle moulder with 2500mm sliding table for over 2 years now and it's the dogs doo dah's. Felder make the best professional combi machines on the planet, but with a price tag to match.
As Scrit mentions a 2550mm sliding table is a minimum for cutting 8' x 4' mfc etc on a regular basis with a scoring unit.
There's been a couple on Ebay recently and also on the Felder website, but you'll need to keep an eye on their site as they sell very quickly. My machines were only on the web site for 2 days recently and I had 4 enquirers & sold to the first person.
As to does the long slider hinder you when ripping small pieces, I can honestly say I've not found it an issue as the ourigger comes off in seconds and the arm folds to the side of the machine and held magnetically, a nice touch.
There's also been some nice panel saws on ebay recently, might be worth having a look there also.
johnnyb
Established Member
it sounds like you require a home workshop type saw maybe a jet supersaw a dw746 or an excalibur. all are top notch saws and are designed to be moveable. they will not cut 8 by 4 sheets BUT are accurate and quality saws superb for general panels, solid and joints the excalibur is the largest of the three and probably the best . the jet and the dewalt are very similar. the jet is easily available from axminster. the dewalt is only available secondhand but is the original home shop saw and made in america. do like most amateurs and saw up outside with guides and hand held circular saws. OR do like me and have b and q cut it on their superb wall saws( at the warehouses)
it was difficult to know what you really required from your first posts hence the digressions.
it was difficult to know what you really required from your first posts hence the digressions.
Hi Felderman
Thanks for the info i was sent the bumph on the felder machines and was wondering about the saw and spindle moulder combo my only thoughts were the cost of the knives as a set of router bits to create doors was around £100 from axminster where as the knives were closer to £700 although i suspect that they would take more sharpenings. I also wondered if using the same fence for the saw and the spindle moulder was a pain or does it just require a little more organisation by cutting the stock first and then setting up for the moulding. I shall keep my eye on ebay and the Felder website as i agree after looking through the catalogue the felders do make my cheque book flutter especially as i will probably have to consider a planer/thicknesser combi or seperates if i am to use stock and some form of extraction.
i take the point about the larger sliding table and have added it to the list of must haves along with the scoring blade. The last small thing that i have to decide is do i tell my wife before or after i sell her to pay for it all.
Thanks for the info i was sent the bumph on the felder machines and was wondering about the saw and spindle moulder combo my only thoughts were the cost of the knives as a set of router bits to create doors was around £100 from axminster where as the knives were closer to £700 although i suspect that they would take more sharpenings. I also wondered if using the same fence for the saw and the spindle moulder was a pain or does it just require a little more organisation by cutting the stock first and then setting up for the moulding. I shall keep my eye on ebay and the Felder website as i agree after looking through the catalogue the felders do make my cheque book flutter especially as i will probably have to consider a planer/thicknesser combi or seperates if i am to use stock and some form of extraction.
i take the point about the larger sliding table and have added it to the list of must haves along with the scoring blade. The last small thing that i have to decide is do i tell my wife before or after i sell her to pay for it all.
Chalk and cheese, really. The £700 set you are talking about are presumably a Felder exterior door making set with carbide tips. For interior (kitchen) doors a £80 universal block and a set of £25 WS or HSS cutters and limiters will give you a single profile (like a router cutter set), although they won't work on MDF. The plus point of the universal block is that you aren't restricted to a limited range from a router cutter manufacturer and can get your own profile sets ground for about £40 a set.Riggly":1tbi0eht said:
BTW another equivalent to using router cutters might be something like the Omas or Freud kitchen door sets where you'd get 5 to 7 TCT replaceable tip sets and a cutter block for somewhere in the region of £400
:lol: After, definitely after :roll:Riggly":1tbi0eht said:
Scrit
DomValente
Established Member
Hello Riggly and welcome,
I have owned Felder machines for several years.
Generally they have been reliable, but my experience of the service dept. is abominable, I won't go into details here.
Should you decide to go with them make sure that the sliding table, crosscut arms and side tables are big enough for the future, in other words buy the biggest machine you can fit or afford, because any extensions relative to the price of the machines are expensive.
I have owned Felder machines for several years.
Generally they have been reliable, but my experience of the service dept. is abominable, I won't go into details here.
Should you decide to go with them make sure that the sliding table, crosscut arms and side tables are big enough for the future, in other words buy the biggest machine you can fit or afford, because any extensions relative to the price of the machines are expensive.
RogerS
Established Member
There is another approach to panel cutting (especially if you are only doing it occasionally) and that approach is discussed here.
My advice would be to think long and hard as to how much use (day in/day out) this kit is going to get. Many of the suggestions in the thread are great if you are a professional and use the stuff every day but if you aren't going to be in this category then I reckon it is equally valid to consider other approaches and maybe spread available funds over a wider range of equipment.
My advice would be to think long and hard as to how much use (day in/day out) this kit is going to get. Many of the suggestions in the thread are great if you are a professional and use the stuff every day but if you aren't going to be in this category then I reckon it is equally valid to consider other approaches and maybe spread available funds over a wider range of equipment.
Thanks Domvalente
i just had another look at the felder website they have a Felder KF 700 for just under £4800 although it doesn't hav e the large table. my budget won't stretch that far however i will need to search some more.
Thanks Roger
I read your thread and you have very valid points especially as i already own a festool ts55 which i use for work. The felder route seems to be getting out of my reach and highlights a weakness i have for buying tools seeing as i have replaced all of my tools around three times over eg power devil skil saw to a skil saw classic to a festool. I do however set a budget and then get carried away (i am probably not alone in this). I will have to rein in my expectations here. i had allowed around two grand to smarten up the kitchen and rather than spending all this on mdf doors from a supplier i figured that if i bought a half decent table saw - which i had always wanted - i could build it myself getting satisfaction and a paid up saw into the bargain. This was when i saw the Robland for £1500 and that seemed to fit the bill perfectly. There doesn't seem to be any one on this forum with a robland so it is difficult to gauge if this saw would be a good compromise between the altendorf/felder route and the smaller cabinet saws.
i just had another look at the felder website they have a Felder KF 700 for just under £4800 although it doesn't hav e the large table. my budget won't stretch that far however i will need to search some more.
Thanks Roger
I read your thread and you have very valid points especially as i already own a festool ts55 which i use for work. The felder route seems to be getting out of my reach and highlights a weakness i have for buying tools seeing as i have replaced all of my tools around three times over eg power devil skil saw to a skil saw classic to a festool. I do however set a budget and then get carried away (i am probably not alone in this). I will have to rein in my expectations here. i had allowed around two grand to smarten up the kitchen and rather than spending all this on mdf doors from a supplier i figured that if i bought a half decent table saw - which i had always wanted - i could build it myself getting satisfaction and a paid up saw into the bargain. This was when i saw the Robland for £1500 and that seemed to fit the bill perfectly. There doesn't seem to be any one on this forum with a robland so it is difficult to gauge if this saw would be a good compromise between the altendorf/felder route and the smaller cabinet saws.
RogerS
Established Member
Have you given any thought to how you're going to make the doors? Frame and panel? If so, what will you use for the panels? Veneered ply as a possible? Given that the panel is going to sit inside the frame then I don't think that you need super-duper accuracy that a large table saw complete with sliding table will give you. Just as easy to cut the panels with the TS55.
Then you could go for a smaller table saw. I don't envy your dilemma as I constantly have a tussle with myself as to whether that large table saw in the middle of the workshop actually is justified in occupying all that space...and I haven't even fixed up the outfeed table and side tables
Then you could go for a smaller table saw. I don't envy your dilemma as I constantly have a tussle with myself as to whether that large table saw in the middle of the workshop actually is justified in occupying all that space...and I haven't even fixed up the outfeed table and side tables
There are alternatives to the E300, though, especially second-hand. Before Christmas I helped a friend of mine in Eire source a Wadkin SP130:Riggly":9b29o3y1 said:
and SCM has made a similar size saw (the SI5/SI12/SI15 series) since at least the 1960s
Scrit
Hi Johhny B
I take your point regarding a home shop saw however i have upgraded my tools so often that the tool that i end up with costs twice as much. Therefore my thoughts were to buy something bigger than i need at present but could accomodate me as my experience grew.
Hi Roger
I thought frame and panel construction for the doors as i could rip the sections and then create the joints with a router/spindle moulder so i take your point the ts55 would be more than adequate. However once the doors had been custom made i would have to make the cornice and overshelves and end panels as well for it all to match. I also have aspirations to build a boat and so having a saw with a sliding table made sense for later on. I had figured that as the robland had a 1700 sliding table that i could carry the end of a 8x4 sheet with a couple of roller stands. Am i deluding myself that i could make a saw of this size movable with a stand from axminster? what saw do you have?
I take your point regarding a home shop saw however i have upgraded my tools so often that the tool that i end up with costs twice as much. Therefore my thoughts were to buy something bigger than i need at present but could accomodate me as my experience grew.
Hi Roger
I thought frame and panel construction for the doors as i could rip the sections and then create the joints with a router/spindle moulder so i take your point the ts55 would be more than adequate. However once the doors had been custom made i would have to make the cornice and overshelves and end panels as well for it all to match. I also have aspirations to build a boat and so having a saw with a sliding table made sense for later on. I had figured that as the robland had a 1700 sliding table that i could carry the end of a 8x4 sheet with a couple of roller stands. Am i deluding myself that i could make a saw of this size movable with a stand from axminster? what saw do you have?
ProShop
Established Member
Hi Riggly,
You mention £700 for the cutters, as Scrit mentions you can get universal/euro blocks for around £60 upwards and profile cutters from around £20 & upwards, and if you have a particular profile you like, there are firms about that will make them for you. No need to spend anywhere near £700..
You mention £700 for the cutters, as Scrit mentions you can get universal/euro blocks for around £60 upwards and profile cutters from around £20 & upwards, and if you have a particular profile you like, there are firms about that will make them for you. No need to spend anywhere near £700.
.I think that you are deluding yourself - the E300 is a lot heavier than a Jet table saw. If it helps, though, I periodically move my F45 around - on a pallet truck. Although it does help having a smooth concrete floor.Riggly":66ege25o said:
Scrit
Hi felderman
Well i am glad i got those prices wrong it keeps both options open
Hi scrit
When I initially started to look for a table saw Wadkin kept coming up and after additional searching today i have found some scm machines that i am waiting for quotes on. These Wadkins initially seemed to be mostly 3 phase so i had dimissed them i shall now have another look. It looks as though i will also have to check ebay for a pallet truck as well the only good thing is that i have a smooth concrete floor thank the Lord for small mercies
Well i am glad i got those prices wrong it keeps both options open
Hi scrit
When I initially started to look for a table saw Wadkin kept coming up and after additional searching today i have found some scm machines that i am waiting for quotes on. These Wadkins initially seemed to be mostly 3 phase so i had dimissed them i shall now have another look. It looks as though i will also have to check ebay for a pallet truck as well the only good thing is that i have a smooth concrete floor thank the Lord for small mercies
