scratched my waterstone

[scooby]

I have 2 footprint 1/4" chisels. One had just been honed awaiting a bit of finishing, the other was a bit battered and had a very rough burr on the flat side.

I went to use the 4000 grit side of my 1000/4000 norton waterstone and picked up the wrong chisel Now I have 4 or 5 deep scratches on the stone face..doh! The stone needs flatting soon, will this process remove the scratches? Having never trued a waterstone before I don't know if it will. The scratches aren't too deep but are clearly visible and when running a finger nail across they can be felt

Bit gutted.

 

[MikeW]

No worries, Scooby.

Just flatten when needed. The scratches won't affect their use, so don't worry about getting them all the way out.

Take care, Mike

 

[ydb1md]

Not to worry. The scratch will wear out eventually and it looks worse than it really is. As long as your stone is flat, the scratch won't affect your sharpening. If it really bothers you, just lap your stone on some wet/dry sandpaper or rub it and another sharpening stone together face-to-face.

 

[JesseM]

Scooby,

I flatten my waterstones everytime I use them, and multiple times during. I use an old diamond stone to flatten and it goes very quickly (5-10 secs). You may lose material more quickly than if you only did it when you needed to, but the upside is I never have to check that they are flat.

 

[mudman]

Easiest way to flatten the stones is to use a piece of drywall screen on some mdf. Doesn't clog and works really fast. B&Q do it in packets.

If you keep this setup to hand when using the stones, it is easy to flatten as you go. I find that frequent flattening of the stones during use, especially the softer coarse stones, is a lot easier than trying to remove a deep hollow.

 

[woodbloke]

Its very difficult to guarantee that waterstones are dead flat IMO even when you think you've done a good job on getting them so. You only have to read recent issues of F&C where David Charesworth goes to immense pains to flatten them and has developed his own strategy for using them to realize that they are more trouble than they are worth and much overrated, IMHO. I ruined a complete set of Japanese chisels using these stones and I am very careful what I do in the workshop. I now use DMT stones and a strop with jewellers rouge which easily gives a comparable edge and further you know that the stones are flat and will remain so. As an after thought, no one in the cabinet making trade that I knew used waterstones or any Japanese kit for that matter - Rob

 

[Jake]

no one in the cabinet making trade that I knew used waterstones or any Japanese kit for that matter

I take it this wasn't in Japan, then?

edit, not that I disagree with you re waterstones. But I like jap saws and covet some jap chisels one of these days.

 

[George_N]

Easiest way to flatten the stones is to use a piece of drywall screen on some mdf. Doesn't clog and works really fast. B&Q do it in packets.

If you keep this setup to hand when using the stones, it is easy to flatten as you go. I find that frequent flattening of the stones during use, especially the softer coarse stones, is a lot easier than trying to remove a deep hollow.

I take it that you need to dry the stones thoroughly before you use this or the MDF will crumble.

George

 

[woodbloke]

I used Jap saws and chisels from APTC for a number of years. The saws were ok, nothing to rave about once you got used to using them. Chisels were good but the steel is so hard and brittle that unless the honing edge is raised a fraction to say 33 deg they will chip very easily on hard timbers. FWIW Iv'e now gone back to European style kit and use now LN chisels (fantastic), saws (equally) and planes (block).
If you see F&C this month Iv'e got an article in it showing how to regrind Jap chisels on a Tormek - Rob

 

[Alf]

<snip> Chisels were good but the steel is so hard and brittle that unless the honing edge is raised a fraction to say 33 deg they will chip very easily on hard timbers. FWIW Iv'e now gone back to European style kit and use now LN chisels (fantastic) <snip>

Which chip out if the edge is lowered below about 33° :lol:

George, best to seal the MDF I think; this flattening business is too regularly needed to have to wait for the stone to dry first.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Shady]

Its very difficult to guarantee that waterstones are dead flat IMO even when you think you've done a good job on getting them so. You only have to read recent issues of F&C where David Charesworth goes to immense pains to flatten them and has developed his own strategy for using them to realize that they are more trouble than they are worth and much overrated, IMHO. I ruined a complete set of Japanese chisels using these stones and I am very careful what I do in the workshop. I now use DMT stones and a strop with jewellers rouge which easily gives a comparable edge and further you know that the stones are flat and will remain so.

Interesting opinion: I'd just observe that, while guaranteeing they're dead flat is indeed difficult, the same applies to all 'traditional' stones - eg water and oil - it's just that the issue is more prominent with waterstones.. One might also point out that DMT - or other - diamond matrix stones (or ceramic stones, for that matter) 'may' not be flat - and certainly, with time, my largest diamond plate has shown a change in the texture of the diamond abrasive in the central, most used, bit of the stone - I bet there'll be a measurable, albeit very shallow, dishing there.

So what am I saying? I think you can over-emphasis the degree of real-world flatness required. Yes, I do flatten my waterstones with each use. I use the 'crudest' of methods - rub 2 stones together under running water until they feel/look flat. This seems to allow me to get chisels and plane blades to the point where they'll cut any wood I wish to cut, so, frankly, I don't care how good the flatness is in absolute terms- it's adequate for my needs.

David's known for his perfectionism, and if I were, say, wanting to compare tools, I might take the time to get 'really flat'. It's not actually that difficult - rub under water as described, then 10 seconds on fine grade wet or dry on float glass...

Each to his own, but they are neither more trouble than they're worth, or over-rated in terms of the edge they give me... I'd not want someone to be put off without trying them....

 

[woodbloke]

Paring American Oak with a honing bevel at 30deg resulted in the edge chipping, raising the angle to 33 deg and didn't.

 

[mudman]

Easiest way to flatten the stones is to use a piece of drywall screen on some mdf. Doesn't clog and works really fast. B&Q do it in packets.

If you keep this setup to hand when using the stones, it is easy to flatten as you go. I find that frequent flattening of the stones during use, especially the softer coarse stones, is a lot easier than trying to remove a deep hollow.

I take it that you need to dry the stones thoroughly before you use this or the MDF will crumble.

George

No, I just flip it over onto the screen and have at it until it's flat. I also keep a towel to hand that I use to wipe down the board as I go. The MDF seems to last okay and I haven't sealed it. I haven't been doing an awful lot of sharpening though recently and it might be a factor if I was using the same board more often. Would probably seal it or maybe look at a piece of kitchen worktop or a granite plate or a piece of glass on a piece of mdf, or anything flat really. :wink:

 

[Jake]

Is comparing Axminster's japanese tools with Lie-Nielsen's comparing eastern eggs with western eggs?

 

[woodbloke]

In a way, yes, its unfair as each type of tool comes from a different heritage. I would suppose that a survey ought to look at European chisels and see what is best and then stuff from the Far East. However, you can also take the view that all chisels are designed to be held in the hand and cut wood either vertically or horizontally, and may or may not be struck with a mallet or hammer, depending on what its being used for. Then a comparison is valid, IMO. If you compare Jap and LN chisels just on comfort of use in the hand alone, then the LN chisels win hands down - the hoop on the end of Jap chisels make them hugely uncomfortable to use - Rob

 

[Alf]

Only seven weeks then GOODBYE AYLESBURY!

What's this then, Barry? Got some missiles trained on Buckinghamshire or summat? :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[mudman]

Only seven weeks then GOODBYE AYLESBURY!

What's this then, Barry? Got some missiles trained on Buckinghamshire or summat? :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Tempting as it is, I'm afraid that it only refers to the end of contract and the return to the bosom of Wales. Then, instead of having to cut grass, clip hedge, fix this, fix that, I may be able to do a few things that I want to do.

Hmm, you know, I may get a few cheers for a well aimed missile at a certain blue-leany building. :twisted:

 

[Jake]

In a way, yes, its unfair as each type of tool comes from a different heritage. I would suppose that a survey ought to look at European chisels and see what is best and then stuff from the Far East. However, you can also take the view that all chisels are designed to be held in the hand and cut wood either vertically or horizontally, and may or may not be struck with a mallet or hammer, depending on what its being used for. Then a comparison is valid, IMO. If you compare Jap and LN chisels just on comfort of use in the hand alone, then the LN chisels win hands down - the hoop on the end of Jap chisels make them hugely uncomfortable to use - Rob

I was more getting at the relative price of each. A fairer comparison with Axminster's Oire Nomi would be something a little further down the food chain than Lie Neilson, I would have thought.

Edit: not as much difference as I thought, but still a way between them, £110 versus £190 for a set of five.

 

[woodbloke]

http://www.dick.biz/


If you have a look at this site at the cost of top quality, exotic Jap chisels, you will see that they far exceed (I think) the cost of a set of LN chisels, the stuff offered by APTC seems a bit mundane by comparison and there not cheap - Rob

 

[Jake]

http://www.dick.biz/


If you have a look at this site at the cost of top quality, exotic Jap chisels, you will see that they far exceed (I think) the cost of a set of LN chisels, the stuff offered by APTC seems a bit mundane by comparison and there not cheap - Rob

Yes, I know. What I was getting at was that you were comparing low end (I thought lower than they actually are) Japanese with high-end Western. Which isn't eggs and eggs.