Jammed internal stopcock

[Graham Orm]

Thanks Grayorm..you are right. It is a replacement.

Subsequent research suggests that although it did turn off, it didn't actually turn off the water. So I'm not sure where to go next

See if the one below still works using a pair of grips but be sure to support the body of the tap with another pair. EDIT It's very important that you support the tap body properly with bigger grips than you use on the nut or you'll risk ripping the tap off the pipe......and that would be messy. The body of the tap will take a lot of undoing, an adjustable spanner would be better than grips on the nut. DON'T use heat, you risk damaging the seal.

If using grips make sure you use them the right way round, they only work in one direction. It's called 'self wrapping action'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_wrench

The new tap looks too new for the washer to have disintegrated so my guess is that it's seized that you didn't actually close it. You need to shut off the water before the newer tap and take the body out first just to check the washer. Then get it in a vice and lubricate and work the tap until it works freely. Then put it all back. It's important that the tap is in the open position when you screw the body of the tap back in place.

If the bottom tap wont shut off the supply or you don't fancy it, then the only alternative is to get the supply turned off. If you do that get yourself a new tap. Rather than repairing the old one, just do as described above and replace the old tap body. EDIT In fact now I think about it you might be as well replacing the tap body either way. Very important that the tap is in the open position when you screw the body back in.

A freezer kit wouldn't be a good idea on this. The ones you buy in the shops are not brilliant and you have limited time before the ice plug melts. Once water starts passing the plug it won't re-freeze. I served my time with North West Water. We had monster freezer kits that came with a large cylinder and worked well. I've tried over the counter ones and conditions have to be perfect.

 

[RogerS]

Many thanks, Grayorm. Good advice. The one problem I foresee is that I have no vertical movement or slack in the pipe which, of course, fits inside both ends of the valve. It's all a bit tight. Might be able to remove the drain cock which might give me enough wiggle room.

 

[Graham Orm]

Many thanks, Grayorm. Good advice. The one problem I foresee is that I have no vertical movement or slack in the pipe which, of course, fits inside both ends of the valve. It's all a bit tight. Might be able to remove the drain cock which might give me enough wiggle room.

You don't need to replace the whole thing, just the tap top. Grip the body of the tap (the bit that runs in line with the pipe) and undo the largest nut on the tap top. The body stays in place on the pipe.

Self wrapping action :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_wrench

 

[Graham Orm]

It's very a very simple mechanism and no springs will fly out!

 

[Eric The Viking]

Roger,

It's a bit late now I fear but anyway:

Put something like a bucket or ice cream tub beneath the stop cock. Pour a kettle full of boiling water over the outside of the body of it (concentrate on the bit between the gland nut and the main part of the tap), then immediately try the tap (with a gloved hand!).

Regarding greasing the gland nut: In days past they were stuffed with tallow-greased hemp. You can achieve much the same by using hemp and vaseline instead, and that's entirely food-safe.

Regarding replacing the thing altogether: I have a Monument tool, designed for belling-out 22mm pipe for straight joints (no coupler required):


This is (mainly) a really stupid idea of a tool (it takes ages; it saves pennies), but it does have one brilliantly useful purpose: bash it through a 22mm straight capilliary coupler (NO SOLDER RINGS!), and it will knock out the pinched part in the middle. This makes a 22mm coupler you can SLIDE ALONG A PIPE.

I came up with this because the solenoid valves on our CH fail in competition with each other every autumn it seems. They're impossible to properly replace without cutting the pipe either side.

I'll leave the rest to your imagination, suffice it to say, it works a treat.

Email me - I'll even let you borrow it, but frankly they're so cheap it's hardly worth the postage. Toolstation used to sell them but the silly so-and-sos now only do the 15mm version, which really is a pointless object.

E.

 

[CHJ]

Poor installation trapping a prime control device in a rigidly fixed pipe run.

If it comes down to a replacement stop cock, plumb it in with an offset with at least one compression corner joint so that it can be released and removed for replacement.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks Eric. Duly ordered.

 

[Graham Orm]

There really is no need to replace the tap. Just screw the top off and put a new top on it. 2 Minutes maximum once the water is off. You're making it into a huge job with lots more to go wrong.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We used to buy the couplers without the ring so they would slide down a pipe - I can't imagine you can't still buy them. As Grayorm said you should be able to replace just the tap insert.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Good point on replacing the insert, but I've tried to match them in the past and found it pretty hard if the stop tap is old.

I have looked for couplers without a pip in the middle (or a ring on the older ones), and the only things I could find were called "repair" fittings - long brass thing with a compression olive at each end. We do have a few decent plumbers merchants in the city too (try getting 1"BSP to 22mm compression that isn't gas taper on the BSP thread - I managed to find some!).

By the way, if you do bash the pips out, it's worth cooking up the coupler first (I usually hang it off a coathanger and cook it with MAPP gas). This anneals the copper (removes the work hardening and makes it more malleable again). It's not the same crystalline structure as steel, so no quenching is necessary (the pre-bronze age of copper plane irons was mercifully short it seems), but you can quench if you want to get on with the job - doesn't affect the annealing, or so I've been told.

E.

 

[Graham Orm]

It's a fairly recent tap, should be no problem.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Quenching copper (like silver) keeps it soft - opposite to steel.

 

[Graham Orm]

Theres always these if you can find one in 22mm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-15mm-x-95 ... 19be5286e6

 

[Eric The Viking]

Quenching copper (like silver) keeps it soft - opposite to steel.

It doesn't matter how you cool copper or silver (within reason):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I would differ with Wiki on that one - I've beaten quite a bit of copper and silver, and I've always been taught that if you choose to harden it you air cooled it, if you wished to work it you quenched it quickly. It's always worked that way for me - if for instance you made a pin for a brooch that needed to be sprung, you never quenched it.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I would differ with Wiki on that one - I've beaten quite a bit of copper and silver, and I've always been taught that if you choose to harden it you air cooled it, if you wished to work it you quenched it quickly. It's always worked that way for me - if for instance you made a pin for a brooch that needed to be sprung, you never quenched it.

Well it certainly does anneal if you quench it, so we can agree on that

It was actually my dad, who's in his eighties now but knows a thing or two about metallurgy, who originally told me it didn't matter many years ago (he also taught me the rudiments of plumbing and soldering as a child).

The wikipedia entry was the first reference I could quickly find.

E.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, it's the degree of softness rather than one being soft and the other hard.