Got my new secondhand PC

[JakeS]

Going wildly off-topic, but hey! ;-)

1). The massive price of software bears little relation to the actual development costs incurred and imposed on a largely captive market.

Probably true for a lot of software, but definitely not true for a lot of other software (speaking as a software engineer myself)! The problem with software there is just that it's sold in a capitalist market, where the 'reasonable price' is 'the price enough people are willing to pay to make it profitable'.

That said, considering how much it does (by which I mean basically everything to make your computer work, which is a hell of a lot of things, all at the same time) and how well it does it (these days with an amazing reliability and stability - 100% of windows crashes I've seen in the last five years have been crappy third-party drivers or broken hardware) Windows is far, far more reasonably priced than a lot of commercial desktop consumer software. As much as I disagree fundamentally with a lot of the direction major software companies (MS included) are taking, comparing them to the music industry is a bit unfair.

3). I know of no other industry where the "manufacturers" routinely sell faulty goods to the public without serious repercussions yet virtually all software falls into this category.

Then you haven't bought any Silverline tools recently! ;-)

You can't have your cake and eat it, though. If you want fault-free software you have to employ formal specification methods, which means your software development cycle takes a hundred or a thousand times longer than if you don't... which means it costs a hundred or a thousand times as much to develop, and will cost the customer a hundred or a thousand times as much to buy. I'm entirely serious - the methods exist, but they're generally only used for properly critical software like nuclear reactor control systems, because they're hugely expensive to use.

Nobody makes faulty software on purpose - and you could similarly argue that there aren't too many other industries where the people who make a product then provide free support and updates to it for the next five years, even for things which aren't strictly their fault or for minor issues. If I use Photoshop or Word and some git works out a convoluted security vulnerability, I can just connect to the Internet, download the patch and I'll be safe; if someone works out a fifteen-second method of breaking into my car or my back door, the manufacturer will most likely shrug and ask if I want to buy a more-secure replacement.

(I'll happily agree that a lot of driver software is disappointingly badly written, though.)

A modern car has many more parts than a pc and sophisticated computer controlled systems, imagine what would happen if that "crashed" whilst in full flow like windows does #-o

I'm not at all convinced this is true. A car has many more moving parts, sure, but if you're talking about functional parts then the computer system wins on part-count hands down. The parts are just far smaller - there are thousands of separate functional units on the processor chip itself, let alone the motherboard! It's also doing a far more complex task; all your car has to do is go forwards, backwards, around corners and stop on command!

Of course, it crashes more often than the car for precisely the reason you mention - the problems caused by a desktop PC going wrong are insignificant compared to the problems caused by a moving vehicle going wrong, so that much more effort is put into making sure it doesn't happen on the vehicle. It's not cost-effective to make sure your desktop PC doesn't break because you - like pretty much everyone else who buys PCs - aren't willing to pay for that level of reliability.

I have little sympathy for Mr G and his cronies, who are perfectly happy to secrete unwanted cookies collect data about normal law abiding public and use or sell on those details for profit and to target us with sales pressure. However they sugar coat it, I call that intrusion of privacy and spying!

Sure - but it's also nothing that your local supermarket doesn't do when you pay by card! Like it or not, pretty much every company with more than one employee is grabbing as much data about their customers as they can get, any way they can get it, because if they didn't they'd lose out to their competitors who do. It's not unique to the software industry!

 

[Lons]

I agree with much of what you say and I made a sweeping statement when I said all software.
you're right of course about market forces dictating price but unfortunately Mr G largely manipulated this to almost monopoly situation at one point and there was very little competition.

My point was aimed at general widely used software available to all and bundled with most machines, usually in trial or limited capacity versions which tie most consumers into the "loop".
Industry specific software is a different matter, The NHS, police, government stuff for example needs special attention but it's far from bug free in my personal experience. Companies such as Sage who local to me produce specialised solutions but the profits they generate appear to be way out of proportion.

To be fair about the "free" upgrades. I'm more than a little sceptical as certainly the early service packs are issued mostly to "fix" bugs that really shouldn't be there in the first place and possibly wouldn't if the companies weren't in such a hurry to market it as they know that unlike consumer goods, they won't get thousands of returns because it doesn't work.

Cars! A lot more than forwards /backwards etc. these days. Engine management, lights, signals, wipers, MMI units and all the safety functions. The cpus in my Audi are more than capable of massive function. (Which is why mechanics can't repair them anymore). Ever seen the electronics on an F1 car up close. I did 2 years ago :shock:

Your point about Silverline tools is valid except that you pay a dirt cheap price for a cheap product so you get exactly what you pay for . Can't say that about the software in question IMO which is premium price.

It's not cost-effective to make sure your desktop PC doesn't break because you - like pretty much everyone else who buys PCs - aren't willing to pay for that level of reliability.

And also ensures that large numbers of people regularly upgrade hardware uneccessarily :roll:

Absolutely right about the supermarkets and of course anywhere we use a card or online purchase. Doesn't justify it though and my feelings are exactly the same towards them. No-one can remain under the radar these days. Price of progress!

I don't personally pirate software though don't deny having used it, or copy music except from my own collection for use in my car and I don't condone anyone doing it to sell but the availability of "free" content is now almost impossible IMO to stop. There are enough hackers out there with the ability to counter just about any protection if they were inclined and with the attitude "stuff the system" and distribute it on the net.
What I have done which is legally questionable was copy the BMW sat nav on my last car and the SD card on my current. Not supposed to and they made it difficult to do but I'm dammed if I'll pay £100s for replacements if damaged when I've already coughed up for originals.

Just my 2 pennerth again

cheers

Bob

 

[devonwoody]

Yeah, but what an industry!

There are thirteen computer items on show in this picture and much more behind the scenes.