Finishing a Snooker Cue

[Shockerz]

Hi
I have just found the forum and what a mine of information it is so hello to everyone!

I have been refinishing and repairing snooker cues for a few years and would like to learn a bit more about the subject.

After using many types of oils to re-finish cues after repairs I generally use Liberon Finishing Oil. I have tried most of the cue makers and never really get the finish I'm after and the Liberon one is the closest.

What I do find is that the cue can still be a tiny bit sticky or leave finger prints on the butt in certain conditions even after hours of buffing!

What I would like to find (or mix) is an oil that gives a nice deep shine to the butt and dry's pretty quick without fingermarks and not tacky. Also the shaft would need to slide across the fingers really smoothly so this may mean different amounts of coats for the butt compared to the shaft.

I have tried adding Renaissance Micro Crystalline Wax Polish to the butt but when the cue is cleaned with a damp cloth (which many players do), this also doesn't react well with water.

The Liberon finish does come up well but I would like to improve on this.

I have thought about adding driers but do not know enough about the subject (which is nil) to be able to delve into experimenting, hence my journey to this fine forum.

If anyone could help then that would be great!

 

[ED65]

What I do find is that the cue can still be a tiny bit sticky or leave finger prints on the butt in certain conditions even after hours of buffing!

This is a problem with any finish that doesn't cure hard enough.

'Finishing oils' are all proprietary mixtures so they could be very varied. Some will be akin to Danish oils which are typically a mix of varnish and oil, and any mixed finish like this will not cure quite as hard as a straight varnish.

I think you want something that cures hard, so that means you need a resin: shellac, varnish or lacquer. All three can be applied thinly enough that there's no distinct surface film, or built to a full coating.

Back when I played pool a lot (30 years ago now) all the really good cues had full film finishes on them and were high gloss, I don't know if tastes have changed since then. Shellac, varnish and lacquer are all naturally glossy but if that level of shine doesn't suit you it can be changed easily. And all very glossy finishes tend to have that squeaky drag effect, which is awful when the back of the rest hand is even the slightest bit sweaty Reduce the surface gloss just slightly and this problem goes away. I wish this is something I'd known back then so I wouldn't have had to carry around a small bag of talc with me every time I went to practice!

I have tried adding Renaissance Micro Crystalline Wax Polish to the butt but when the cue is cleaned with a damp cloth (which many players do), this also doesn't react well with water.

Yup. It's the same with all wax polishes. In addition they wear off (every one, without exception so no holy grail to look for here) so you're guaranteed that any improvement in shine or surface feel that the wax is being used for will go away over time. Wax finishes require top up/maintenance, simple as that.

I have thought about adding driers but do not know enough about the subject (which is nil) to be able to delve into experimenting, hence my journey to this fine forum.

Adding driers probably won't provide any benefit. What they do is speed drying, duh , but they don't increase peak hardness. That's purely down to the formulation of the product and, in short, the amount and type of resin(s) it contains.

 

[morturn]

Have a look at ‘Birchwood Casey Tru Oil Gun Stock Finish’, used on gut stocks, I have use it on a couple of acoustic guitars too. It’s a combination of oil and varnish that you wipe on with a cloth and rub it out.

 

[Shockerz]

Have a look at ‘Birchwood Casey Tru Oil Gun Stock Finish’, used on gut stocks, I have use it on a couple of acoustic guitars too. It’s a combination of oil and varnish that you wipe on with a cloth and rub it out.

Hi Morturn

Thanks for the reply.

Yep, tried the try Oil as a few cue refinishers have. It is pretty good for the butt when a few coats are applied but it didn't actually come on as good as the Liberon.

 

[Shockerz]

Back when I played pool a lot (30 years ago now) all the really good cues had full film finishes on them and were high gloss, I don't know if tastes have changed since then. Shellac, varnish and lacquer are all naturally glossy but if that level of shine doesn't suit you it can be changed easily. And all very glossy finishes tend to have that squeaky drag effect, which is awful when the back of the rest hand is even the slightest bit sweaty Reduce the surface gloss just slightly and this problem goes away. I wish this is something I'd known back then so I wouldn't have had to carry around a small bag of talc with me every time I went to practice!

The general requirements of a finish in pool and snooker are very different as regards finish. The way your pool cue was finished some 30 years ago hasn't changed too much for a lot of people but snooker cues (and some pool) as mostly oil finish now. The butt requirements are as deep a shine as you can get without being sticky and the shaft being smooth (not lacquer) and slips through the fingers well and eventually burnished.

Adding driers probably won't provide any benefit. What they do is speed drying, duh , but they don't increase peak hardness. That's purely down to the formulation of the product and, in short, the amount and type of resin(s) it contains.

That's something learned for me I suppose as I thought increased driers would speed up the drying time and then be 'dry,' so to speak.

As long as the oil does actually fully dry then that is what I am after and also a nice deep shine on the butt; both being an oil finish.

And there the puzzle starts for me......

 

[ED65]

You might be stuck on the 'oil finish' thing without needing to be. If it helps you can think of varnish as an oil finish because they contain lots of oil

Did you try and discard anything else before experimenting with the oil finishes you went through and deciding on the Liberon?

 

[Shockerz]

You might be stuck on the 'oil finish' thing without needing to be. If it helps you can think of varnish as an oil finish because they contain lots of oil

Did you try and discard anything else before experimenting with the oil finishes you went through and deciding on the Liberon?

I used linseed oil, boiled linseed oil, 4 different cue makers oil mixes and I'm sure a couple of others.

They were all pretty ok but none really gave me that top notch finish I've seen on a few cue makers finished cues, hence the interest.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'd have thought if you got a better shine with finishing oil than TruOil you must be doing something wrong.

 

[custard]

What timbers are pool cues made from? And if they're pale timbers (like Ash or Maple) is that paleness a virtue that you want to preserve, or don't you mind if they yellow slightly due to the finishing process?

There's generally a trade off between a deep gloss and the tactile qualities of a finish. It's difficult to have them both. However, you can bend that trade off somewhat. In my experience for any given level of gloss the finish that feels the worst is varnish (it often feels very slightly sticky or grabby to the touch even when it's fully cured), in the middle are sprayed pre-cat lacquers which generally have silica additives, and the best are shellac finishes. It's sometimes possible to tell what the finish is on a piece of furniture by holding the palm of your hand flat on the surface for a few seconds and then slowly pulling it towards you. You'll tend to find there's more "stiction" with varnish compared to a shellac french polish finish.

I know nothing about snooker cues, but one thought would be a classic french polished finish? The problem would be that if you use very open grained timbers like Ash then the initial grain filling stages, at least if done traditionally with pumice, on a small diameter round component like a cue, would be horribly time consuming. Maybe a little experiment is warranted though, try a shellac based sanding sealer like this,

http://www.liberon.co.uk/product/spirit-sanding-sealer/

It won't cost a fortune to trial it and if you don't like the result you can easily remove it with meths. If you do like it that might be the answer in itself, or you might be inspired to go the full distance and learn how to french polish.

I suspect the alternative is actually quite a serious commitment, a fine fan detail spray gun followed by an automotive type burnishing regime. That would give an incredibly deep, non yellowing gloss in a reasonably short time, and still deliver a moderate level of tactile appeal. You'd really struggle to compete against that with tins of stuff bought in B&Q, which is why I suggest you either go the whole hog with spraying or investigate outflanking the sprayed alternative with an altogether classier shellac based solution.

Just a thought.

Good luck!

 

[Shockerz]

I'd have thought if you got a better shine with finishing oil than TruOil you must be doing something wrong.

Possibly. I aim to try and find a few new methods to try and then go over them all again and compare them for shine and feel (smooth not sticky).

Sometimes when you try lots of things the old memory probably isn't exactly as you remember. Clearly it wasn't impressive enough to provide everything for me. I have seen lots of other places saying what a great shine it gives after a few coats. From memory I didn't find that but will have something to compare again soon.

 

[Shockerz]

What timbers are pool cues made from? And if they're pale timbers (like Ash or Maple) is that paleness a virtue that you want to preserve, or don't you mind if they yellow slightly due to the finishing process?

There's generally a trade off between a deep gloss and the tactile qualities of a finish. It's difficult to have them both. However, you can bend that trade off somewhat. In my experience for any given level of gloss the finish that feels the worst is varnish (it often feels very slightly sticky or grabby to the touch even when it's fully cured), in the middle are sprayed pre-cat lacquers which generally have silica additives, and the best are shellac finishes. It's sometimes possible to tell what the finish is on a piece of furniture by holding the palm of your hand flat on the surface for a few seconds and then slowly pulling it towards you. You'll tend to find there's more "stiction" with varnish compared to a shellac french polish finish.

I know nothing about snooker cues, but one thought would be a classic french polished finish? The problem would be that if you use very open grained timbers like Ash then the initial grain filling stages, at least if done traditionally with pumice, on a small diameter round component like a cue, would be horribly time consuming. Maybe a little experiment is warranted though, try a shellac based sanding sealer like this,

http://www.liberon.co.uk/product/spirit-sanding-sealer/

It won't cost a fortune to trial it and if you don't like the result you can easily remove it with meths. If you do like it that might be the answer in itself, or you might be inspired to go the full distance and learn how to french polish.

I suspect the alternative is actually quite a serious commitment, a fine fan detail spray gun followed by an automotive type burnishing regime. That would give an incredibly deep, non yellowing gloss in a reasonably short time, and still deliver a moderate level of tactile appeal. You'd really struggle to compete against that with tins of stuff bought in B&Q, which is why I suggest you either go the whole hog with spraying or investigate outflanking the sprayed alternative with an altogether classier shellac based solution.

Just a thought.

Good luck!

Thanks for the in depth post. I am at the start position as regards in depth knowledge across the board of finishing. I will have to put the kettle on and digest your post a piece at a time but very interesting it is (oops, sounded a little Star Wars there!).

The pool cues are generally made from maple where as snooker cues are mainly ash with a lower percentage of maple snooker cues.

Personally I would expect the butt to have more coats to instill a deeper shine (gloss). I have found that the main shaft to have a lot less coats to keep it smooth.

I have read that the shafts can take many coats 4/5 where as I have even oiled shafts with a singular coat, obviously dependent upon how much you initially put on (and remove once started to dry).

I guess I am going to have to collate as much info as possible and then go through a further experiment to see what turns out best. Clearly a few of the cue makers out there have gone through this and come up with their own mix and the ones I have tried work reasonably well but not as good as I would have thought.

I do have some Liberon Sanding Sealer already so worth a go!

 

[flame]

Hi Shockerz, I am by no means a pro at cue making, but have made some just as a hobby. By far the best finish is raw linseed oil (not boiled), mixed with a small amount of liquid wax, obviously experimentation is required. One of the best cue makers is near you (Mike Wooldridge), could be worth getting in touch with him. Bill.

 

[Making Shavings]

This is very interesting for me- I'm currently repairing my friend's cue butt with a piece of rosewood after he dropped it onto the floor instead of his foot. As part of the learning process, I consulted a bowyer friend of mine in Holland who makes some high quality bows with exotic woods and horn materials, some of which have similar high gloss finishes to snooker cues, are held in the hand and must stand up to sweat, grease, dirt etc. His advice was that heat during application was the key. Using liberon finishing oil, heat the material to 60 degrees in a dry area, with a vacuum sucking air (read: dust) out. Put the oil in the same sealed room when heating the material at the same time, remove the cap/lid. Leave alone for at least 1 hour before entering the room. Close the door and apply, finish, buff etc. Leave alone for 1 hour. Then turn off the heat and vacuum, and allow to cool naturally to ambient temperature. Apply again, finish, buff etc again the following day with all heating off (but have the vacuum running). I'll be doing this tomorrow and Saturday.

 

[ED65]

This is very interesting for me- I'm currently repairing my friend's cue butt with a piece of rosewood after he dropped it onto the floor instead of his foot. As part of the learning process, I consulted a bowyer friend of mine in Holland who makes some high quality bows with exotic woods and horn materials, some of which have similar high gloss finishes to snooker cues, are held in the hand and must stand up to sweat, grease, dirt etc. His advice was that heat during application was the key. Using liberon finishing oil, heat the material to 60 degrees in a dry area, with a vacuum sucking air (read: dust) out. Put the oil in the same sealed room when heating the material at the same time, remove the cap/lid. Leave alone for at least 1 hour before entering the room. Close the door and apply, finish, buff etc. Leave alone for 1 hour. Then turn off the heat and vacuum, and allow to cool naturally to ambient temperature. Apply again, finish, buff etc again the following day with all heating off (but have the vacuum running). I'll be doing this tomorrow and Saturday.

Is that supposed to be Centigrade?? Never mind the practicality of getting a room that hot you wouldn't be able to handle the material without gloves on :?

Some general advice: any time you hear of or read a very involved or arduous finishing routine the very first thing you should ask yourself is what's the supposed benefit? In every previous case I can bring to mind it was very easy to find someone getting nigh-on identical results doing something much more straightforward. And in this context specifically I know from reading the bowmaking forums that you'll be able to do the same here.