Advice required about veneering please

[studioman]

Can anyone helpmeet with some advice about veneering please.

I have done plenty of woodwork before but relatively little veneering.

I am making some MDF loudspeaker cabinets and have some engineered paper backed veneer to apply afterwards. The veneer also needs to be stained darker and top coated, maybe sprayed with acrylic or polyurethane.

However, 20cm from the base of this cabinet I need to apply a band of different material, 22mm wide, all the way around the cabinets. The 22mm band is a roll of edging tape a bit like contiplas edging, which has a plastic base, a very thin layer of real stainless steel, and a clear plastic top finish. On the reverse is a heat sensitive self adhesive backing. I suspect that if I get any stain on the band, it will discolour it, and I don't want that.

My questions are:
1.
Should I fix the band first and then apply the veneer up to it?
OR
Apply the veneer with a 22mm gap and apply the band afterwards. How do I do this accurately enough?

Thank you!

 

[Droogs]

Depends on what you are sticking the veneer down with. Personaly I'd do the veneer all over with hide glue and then stain, then route the appropriate width and depth dado for the metal part and stick that on.

 

[studioman]

Thank you for the reply.

Gluing:
I've only done veneering with evostick before....but I do suspect that I will get gaps opening up eventually between the veneers with the sun streaming through the window onto the cabinets. ....I seem to remember that happening on a previous occasion.

I have cascamite in, but I've never used hide glue....is it really a better option,or is cascamite a good option too? Does it need a heating pot etc?


Staining:
The other question is the stain... The veneer I have is engineered veneer (i.e. printed?), to simulate Brazilian Rosewood but is actually made of some renewable timber, so very eco-friendly, The grain is ok on it, but the colour is somewhere between teak, iroko and rosewood, but I need to make it permanently darker brown. What is my best stain to use? (make and colour)

Thank you for any advice...it is appreciated.

 

[Droogs]

The trouble with Evostik etc is you will get creep over time and will probably lead to the veneer splitting, especially if you know the speakers are going to be in direct sunlight for part of the time. It's surprising at times how much of a temperature differential you can get along with its associated movement. I mostly do hammer veneering but do occasionaly use a vacuum press or a cold press. When using these I prefer to use the cascamite type of glue, ie UF. It gives you a good open time and lets you fiddle about a bit to set things right.
You don't need to get a glue pot as such for hide as a "baine marie" will do - tin in a pot of hot water set to about 70 -80 deg C. Think of how you melt chocolate.

I have to say I have no experience with "engineered veneer", could you put up a bit more info about yours so that we can a a looksie at the source infor etc before giving any suggestions. There is a good thread about using potassium permanganate here:

post726008.html#p726008

or you could try van dyke cystrals.

I'm sure Custard or one of the other veneerers who use the more modern methods more than I will be along to help shortly

HTH

 

[dkaardal]

Hide glue is easy to work with. I use it for violin and cello projects - all I do is mix up the hide glue in a small glass jar and pop the jar in a £5 baby bottle warmer from Boots (or ebay in my case) set to the right temperature. Add a little more water every so often when the glue starts to thicken up due to evaporation, and you can keep it going for ages.

I'd pay real money if the stuff came in nicely scented varieties though.

 

[studioman]

Droogs, what is hammer veneering please, and is it just a technique for hide glue or can it be used with cascamite?

 

[custard]

My head's spinning as you're trying to do so many different things!

I'm trying to break it down into individual steps. I get the impression that you want to avoid pressing the veneer, if so you only have two choices, a contact cement like Evo Stick or hide glue. If you've used Evo Stick before and are familiar with it then why change. To be honest this all sounds more like a craft project rather than a traditional veneering project, so non traditional adhesives are entirely appropriate, it might not last two hundred years but that's probably not what you're looking for!

I'd also apply the band first and then veneer up to that, staining at the end with a water based dye and finally finishing with a brushed on polyurethane varnish. It's not going to win any veneering competitions, and you will get some fading in direct sunlight over time, but if you're careful and work slowly and methodically I see no reason why it can't be a serviceable job that gives you a lot of satisfaction.

Good luck!

 

[studioman]

I have no equipment other than my hands and a few handtools. No veneer press or vacuum bags.

Engineered veneer is thin pieces of bamboo which are cut, glued and pressed into sheet form, 0.5mm thick, then stained and printed to simulate other woods. There is a paper backing stuck to the back, which means that the manufacturers can make large sheets, ie 600mm wide, 1200mm wide, by long (2.4m) or even continuous lengths. Very green, but also quite a reasonable result.

I can't press the veneer on because I will be veneering a constructed hollow box (well, 2 actually!), 1100mm x 500mm x 450mm.

Question 1: Just wondering whether to use hide glue if it will hold the veneer better whilst it is drying, OR whether Cascamite, which I'm used to using on other non-veneering projects, will do the job as well.

Question 2; The order of veneering. These are tall cabs. Do I veneer the sides in the order: 1. bottom 2. back 3. front 4. sides 5. top? Think of it as a rectangular box, just want to make sure that I choose the best option for the order of veneering.

Thank you

 

[Droogs]

Go here for a quick peek at how it's done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkrLrGifW08

 

[Normancb]

I would guess hammer veneering is not going to work with your paper-backed veneer. There's a lot of hot water involved and I suspect the paper backing is likely to react badly.

Using cascamite-type is not going to be easy either - the setting time is long and you need to keep the veneer pressed down all the time to stop it lifting. It's also water-based so may not react well to the paper backing.

I'd think about using glue film - hot-melt glue on a release paper backing. You put it down on the MDF and iron the paper side with a warm domestic iron, then peel off the release paper leaving a thin. even film of glue. Put the veneer down and iron it on with an iron hot enough to melt the glue (not too hot or you'll dry out the veneer too much). I usually use the iron in one hand and a piece of wood or a veneer hammer following behind to really press the veneer down. It's hard in a few seconds and no danger of lifting glue through the surface with solvent in subsequent finish. Also since no liquid involved your paper backing won't be affected.

Works very well, though not if the wood is going to get very hot - the glue softens around 60 C.

You can get glue film from several e-bay suppliers.

I'd veneer the lot then use a sharp knife (or better a veneer saw) to cut out the slot for your steel tape and iron that down - but try it on some scrap first.

Good luck

 

[custard]

I'd think about using glue film - hot-melt glue on a release paper backing. You put it down on the MDF and iron the paper side with a warm domestic iron, then peel off the release paper leaving a thin. even film of glue. Put the veneer down and iron it on with an iron hot enough to melt the glue (not too hot or you'll dry out the veneer too much). I usually use the iron in one hand and a piece of wood or a veneer hammer following behind to really press the veneer down. It's hard in a few seconds and no danger of lifting glue through the surface with solvent in subsequent finish. Also since no liquid involved your paper backing won't be affected.

That's an excellent suggestion. I'd forgotten about glue film as once you're set up for vac pressing you hardly ever have a use for it, but if you're careful and thorough glue film would be a very appropriate solution to the OP's problem.

 

[studioman]

OK, that sounds like a good solution. My only concern would be that I'm applying the film to MDF, then removing the backing paper, then placing the paper backed veneer in position and ironing it on....
Now, I can see that the film would work as planned with ordinary unbacked veneer, BUT isn't there a risk that with paper backed veneer, the doubling up of the 2 thin films, (i.e. the glue film (is it also paper?) and the paper backing of the veneer, won't there be a risk of the paper itself separating and breaking off more easily on corners?

 

[Normancb]

Good question. I've never tried glue film with paper-backed veneer. The paper in glue film is a silicone-coated release paper and the glue is a hot-melt EVA which is left as a thin film after the release paper is removed. I've used it very successfully with plain wood veneer but others don't seem to like it. You could experiment.

There is a product called Heat Lock glue in the US. Seems to be very popular with speaker makers.

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/ ... -Glue.html

Something similar seems to be available in the UK (but only in small tubes):

http://www.shop4glue.com/veneer-adhesiv ... -190-p.asp

I've heard it said that you can do the same trick with ordinary white PVA. Brush onto both surfaces, let it dry then iron it on. Said to work well as long as you don't leave the dried glue too long but I can't vouch for it.

 

[studioman]

I've tried heat activated double sided film, with paper backed veneer. Used a dry iron. Also a carpet hammer tool, heavy steel, chrome plated, a bit like a bolster chisel 100mm wide. All seemed fine but it is not easy to avoid some air pockets....am going to try a localised heat gun next with a cut made with a scalpel to tease the air out.

 

[studioman]

A year later, and my DIY speakers with rosewood CV veneer are all finished.....

 

[RobinBHM]

They look great. How do they sound?

The coffee table, ive got one almost identical! Mine came from trading boundaries, one of those Colonial furniture shops.

 

[sploo]

A year later, and my DIY speakers with rosewood CV veneer are all finished.....

Looking good. I was about to ask if that was an ATC midrange, then spotted the ATC logo on the top right of the speakers... so I'll take that as a yes

 

[n0legs]

That looks great =D>