advice on (very) cheap scroll saw

[mqbernardo]

Hi all, i wonder if someone can help me choose between this two entry-level scroll saw (a part from the fact that one of them is out of stock ATM):

- http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... scroll-saw

- http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-jss-16-b ... scroll-saw


There´s no reviews on the new axi model and the usual mixed reviews on the JET, and i´m new to this so your input is highly appreciated. I´ll use it for light lutherie work, so it doesn´t need to be a top performer (in fact i also considered the model making Proxxon DS 230, but it struggled to cut 3/4 inch honduras cedar so it got dropped).

Thanks in advance.
Miguel.

 

[Chippygeoff]

As you have said, both saws are entry level. I have about 8 hours work out of my saws each day and none of the 2 you have shown an interest in would last very long in my workshop. One of the keys points with my work is fast blade changing and a good speed along with good blade tension. At the end of the day it depends on what you are intending to use it for. If like me you are going to be cutting thick hardwood then I think you may struggle, especially with the Axminster one as it only cuts at 1400. The Jet seems the better bet with the higher speed. Please don't judge all saws on the performance of these 2 saws. If you were to use one of these for a while and then use a Hegner you would see a big difference. You get what you pay for. If you do buy one of the cheaper saws then throw the blades that come with it and go for pinless blades like the flying Dutchman ones from Mike's workshop.

 

[Baldhead]

I have an old Delta scrollsaw, I thought it was very good, (although I don't use it very much) my brother has a Hegner, it is out of this world, ok I paid just under £50 for the Delta, he paid £400ish for the Hegner, is it worth that much? Yes it is, I often hear the phrase, buy cheap buy twice, that is so very true.
Another point I would like to make is, if you buy a cheapy you may be put of scrolling for life because you think your no good at it, but really it's the saw that's not up to it.
Take my advice, save up for a Hegner, also I have seen somewhere on here that Hegner are offer 15% off.

Baldhead

 

[boysie39]

Both ChippyGeoff and Baldhead have given you very sound advice and I would agree with that .

The type of saw will make a huge difference to your likes or dislikes of Scrolling . Buy good and enjoy .

 

[bernienufc]

Hi
I have the Jet one, this was an upgrade to a b&q one that i started with. As i am only at the novice stage i find that the saw does every thing i want so far. The blades do not take long to change (mind you i have left the side cover off to aid this). I have used the vairiable speed for different woods but i dont mess too much.
The table only tilts to the left and as i am starting to learn inlays wish it would tilt right. As a novice i have already nadged the plastic insert which is about 1mm below the table so you need to raise it with a shim for small work.
I am looking for next upgrade already, but thats just me being impatient as this really will do for me if i put my mind to it. I ould say its been real good value for money and am enjoying using it.
If you look through a couple of posts of mine you can a money box i made and a coaster so its well adequate for the stage i am at, a good saw in my mind. I amde a santa and reindeer sleigh about 18" long and involved 3/4" oak and it did a lovely job.
HTH

 

[OldWood]

I have the Jet in a rebadbed form (Woodstar). There is a Record and many other manufacturers' names on this model. The main asset of the Jet against the cheaper model is the variable speed, which I think is well worth having.

I bought this at sale a year ago and hadn't really used it until recently, and have just completed a lengthy project making a 20" long Noah's Ark and 20 x 2 associated animals. Clearly I'm not in the same league as ChippyGeoff but I would like to think that sometimes the best comments come from someone who is just one level or 2 above the enquirer.

It's also worth reporting that I had an opportunity to try the Axminster Trade Series AWFS18 scroll saw recently, and was not impressed in comparison. The AWFS18 was far noisier and vibrated more than the Jet JSS-16 type despite its additional weight. The price of this machine is far in excess of the JSS-16 types and apart from the quick release blade system, I didn't enjoy using it and felt the JSS-16 type was a far better value buy.

But - I would recommend you check with Axminster if you go for the Jet because it lacks two items I find valuable - it has neither a light on a flexible arm, nor does it have a work-piece clamp, and I think they have been omitted as non-critical to keep the price down.

I have a well lit workshop, but find the local light helps considerably.

The workpiece clamp is interesting as there seems to be no consistency across suppliers as to whether there should or should not be one. The problem I suspect from limited experience is the difficulty in getting an arm that stops the workpiece jumping up and down, but does not present any significant friction to moving the wood against the blade. I set the clamp against the wood with a piece of paper folded 3X slipped in and that creates the right space for me.

The point will be made I'm sure by others that you should be able to hold the wood down with you fingers and still guide it - which is true, but becomes hazardous when cutting small times and fingers are pretty close to an exposed blade; also it does mean that you do have to apply noticeable downward pressure at all times to the wood, which I find is not that easy to do, particularly when rotating the workpiece. The second very good reason that I like the clamp is that its fingers give an excellent visual guideline to line up the pattern to ensure a square on movement of the wood against the blade - it's a reference line if you like to run the pattern against.

My recommendation is not to buy the Jet because of these omissions and look to buy the similar model from another source. All identical machines in different colours and different names are all coming from one factory, and will not vary in quality. Do not bother with the models that have a flexible drive drill head attachment as this is just a gimmick.

All the best
Rob

Edit :-
Can I add in now that I have read the posts that appeared while I was writing this, that there are always users who advise buying the likes of the Hegner at at least 4X an acceptable entry level price and I totally disagree with them. These people either have very deep pockets and can afford to spend £500 to satisfy a possible interest, or have bought poorly when they started. I bought the Woodstar (same model as the Jet) as a whim because it was on offer - and have found the £100 spend to be just at the level I wanted. I, possibly like the OP, didn't know if I was going to take scrolling anywhere, and I think that to advise spending £500 when there is a perfectly adequate £100 machine widely available is irresponsible.

One comment I forgot to include previously is that pinless blades are a must . I bought a Pegas pack from Axminster that came the next day in the post and only the first one broke in 40+ hours using them.

 

[martinka]

Oldwood, the Jet JSS-16 I just sold did have a hold down arm, which I removed as I found it to be in the way all the time. From reading various forums, it seems just about everyone removes the hold down arm after they gain a bit of experience. That's not to say you shouldn't use it of course, if you find it easier. I didn't find the lack of a light to be a problem as I like to supply my own light and from the direction I need, and very few saws come with a light anyay. Although I have a Hegner, I agree with you about recommending cheaper saws. I think for the majority of people, one of the better cheap saws will do everything they need. If you are going to make money from the saw, or do a LOT of scrolling, then it's a different matter. Of course, you might just want the best.

Martin.

 

[OldWood]

Oldwood, the Jet JSS-16 I just sold did have a hold down arm, which I removed as I found it to be in the way all the time. From reading various forums, it seems just about everyone removes the hold down arm after they gain a bit of experience. That's not to say you shouldn't use it of course, if you find it easier. I didn't find the lack of a light to be a problem as I like to supply my own light and from the direction I need, and very few saws come with a light anyay. Although I have a Hegner, I agree with you about recommending cheaper saws. I think for the majority of people, one of the better cheap saws will do everything they need. If you are going to make money from the saw, or do a LOT of scrolling, then it's a different matter. Of course, you might just want the best.

Martin.

Hi Martin - that's a good answer for the OP.

I do get rankled by people who answer posts such as this when the heading is "(very)cheap" and saying "oh, you must spend at least £500". I get to the point where I do suspect such people are really just saying "look at me, I can afford to spend £500". I could make a comment about workers and tools, but because I've never used one of the 'good' scrioll saws I cannot really pass comment on how much better my work would be with one.

I did wonder about the holddown - that's so much better a word - but for me as a beginner I find it useful. It was interesting that when I went to use the AWFS18 I was struggling with alignment and the wood flapping around. No doubt time will rid me of these !

The light also is a moot point - I suspect this falls into the same category in that if you at the level of being a 'good' (or deep-pocketed) scrollsawyer you have bought in a lit magnifying system or something. For me, where scrolling has to take its place alongside the flat world, the turning world and the mucky metal working world, the convenience of being able to get the scroll saw down from the shelf, plug it in and go without fiddling around with lighting systems, etc. is paramount, and in my opinion that is what the beginner wants.

Rob

 

[mqbernardo]

thanks all for your valuable input. OK, so the axi is out of the equation. Hegner is not for me at this stage, this saw will be used only sporadically and on light tasks (the most i´m asking of it is to cut 3/4 " honduras cedar, ie: cutting guitar headstocks and head-slots). i just recently found out this other offer from Proxxon : http://www.satberlin.de/en/PROXXON-mach ... H-NO-28092 (it´s actually one of the first items from Proxxon i look at that doesn´t seem like a toy, it weights 20 kgs and got some fine reviews) - should this be an alternative to the JET? i know it´s not variable speed, but i don´t know how much of a deal breaker that is.

thanks again,
Miguel.

 

[Chippygeoff]

Hi Oldwood.

I wouldlike to add to what I said earlier. The more experienced scrollers do not use the hold down for the very reason Martin stated, it gets in the way and really its not needed at all but if you like to use one then all well and good, we are all different and have our own preferences. I use the scroll saw in a professional manner, I earn my living by what I make on the scroll saw and having used the cheaper saws in a bygone era I came to the conclusion that the way forward was to buy a Hegner. I have another good quality saw from America besides the middle range Hegner I have which if bought today would set me back £1200. As I said before, you get what you pay for and by having the Hegner I have peace of mind knowing that I have a very good quality machine that has stood the test of time, it is very reliable, deadly accurate, made from aircraft quality materials and I doubt if it will ever let me down. My Hegner has paid for itself over and over again. I like the blade changing system on it and the simplicity of the design. If anything was to go wrong then everything on the saw is easily accessible.

There is nothing wrong with buying a cheap saw but as I and many other members have stated in the past please be aware of what you are buying as the cheaper saws can put people off scroll sawing for life as very often the person using it feels they are not very good when in fact the fault lies with the saw and not the operator. An expert can make a cheap saw sing and produce decent work but scrolling is something that cannot be learnt overnight or from a book. The only way to be a good scroller is with plenty of practice and I know from experience and by teaching other people that a cheap chiwanese saw will often put people off. I know that not many people can afford a Hegner but when someone does get one the phrase i hear most is, "What a difference a Hegner makes."

 

[stevebuk]

hi
if you are going to make anything you intend to sell i would try and buy the best you can afford as it will make cutting and your time on the scroll saw so much more pleasant rather than buying the cheaper end stuff and regretting it later.
Just remember one thing, you can make something crap on a good saw but you cant make something good on a crap saw, enjoy our hobby, its very additive..

 

[JustBen]

Just remember one thing, you can make something rubbish on a good saw but you cant make something good on a rubbish saw, enjoy our hobby, its very additive..

I make lots of good things on my rubbish saw..... It is a pain in the A through.

 

[powertools]

I own 2 saws that most people on here would consider to be rubbish.
Scrolling is only a small part of my woodworking hobby and I enjoy it and the Grand kids just love the results.
I have a workshop full of tools and equipment most of it is at the lower end of the price range because I would rather have a tool for the job than no tool for the job because I can't afford it.
Every time this sort of question is asked the answers are always the same but although a top end saw at a premium price would be better it is not better to not have one at all because you can't justify the cost of the best.
A scroll saw is quite a simple machine and good results can be achieved on even the cheapest available but if you are going to make your income on it you may as well go for the best but that does not mean that you won't get a lot of pleasure from the cheapest and maybe then decide in the future to upgrade.

 

[stevebuk]

Totally agree with you powertools, but as you get better at cutting your horizon expands and you want to cut more intricate detail and more challenging things out, i'm not saying they cant be achieved on a cheap end saw but the effort involved in doing it would soon out stay its welcome and you will want to buy something better.
For run of the mill stuff for the grand kids to paint or to play with then the cheaper saws are fine..

 

[martinka]

buy the best you can afford

Unfortunately, the best you can afford is, more often than not, unlikely to be a Hegner, and more likely to be far eastern.

but you cant make something good on a rubbish saw

I'll have to disagree with that statement, Steve. It brings to mind an old saying in engineering, "new lathes are made on old lathes."

Martin.

 

[stevebuk]

[I'll have to disagree with that statement, Steve. It brings to mind an old saying in engineering, "new lathes are made on old lathes."

Martin.[/quote]]

agreed martin, but usually not as good, they tend to use inferior metal and the tolerances are not as good, being a lathe owner.. :lol:

 

[martinka]

My lathe came from your neck of the woods, Steve, in Beeston, but the company has Yorkshire based owners now.

Martin.

 

[Philip n]

thanks all for your valuable input. OK, so the axi is out of the equation. Hegner is not for me at this stage, this saw will be used only sporadically and on light tasks (the most i´m asking of it is to cut 3/4 " honduras cedar, ie: cutting guitar headstocks and head-slots). i just recently found out this other offer from Proxxon : http://www.satberlin.de/en/PROXXON-mach ... H-NO-28092 (it´s actually one of the first items from Proxxon i look at that doesn´t seem like a toy, it weights 20 kgs and got some fine reviews) - should this be an alternative to the JET? i know it´s not variable speed, but i don´t know how much of a deal breaker that is.

thanks again,
Miguel.

Miguel,
I spoke to a guy once who had bought a Proxxon DS460 (their top of the line saw) as a replacement for a Hegner that had reached the end of its life, and he was very impressed by it.
Of course, just because one saw in their range is good it doesn't mean that the rest are too. One thing that jumps out as being a possible issue with the Proxxon that you are looking at is
that the table seems very small (360 x 180mm). If you need a lot of support for the pieces that you are cutting then you would have to create an auxiliary table.
Variable speed is useful to have, but I'd imagine 2 speeds would be something you could live with.

None of the budget priced saws will cut 3/4" timber with great ease. How intricate is the work you are doing? Would a small bandsaw suit you better? It wouldn't cost much more than a scroll saw.

 

[mqbernardo]

Thanks for the reply Phil,

Quite simple stuff, i do it by hand now but i guess having a scroll saw will help me and will also be fun to do some stuff for my kids with it. The main thing i´m up for is cutting the crest shape in guitar heads, mostly similar to this one: http://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/wp-cont ... dstock.jpg. These are typically made of around 3/4 inch honduras cedar, which is rather soft and workable - shouldn´t be too hard.
Another thing is cutting the circular fit for the ebony fingerboard to the guitar´s soundhole, like this: http://www.kentguitarclassics.com/class ... f-semley-2 . Ebony is much harder, but it will be only about 1/6 inch thick, so it should be doable.

once more, thanks for the reply. It´s been helpful.

all the best,
Miguel.

thanks all for your valuable input. OK, so the axi is out of the equation. Hegner is not for me at this stage, this saw will be used only sporadically and on light tasks (the most i´m asking of it is to cut 3/4 " honduras cedar, ie: cutting guitar headstocks and head-slots). i just recently found out this other offer from Proxxon : http://www.satberlin.de/en/PROXXON-mach ... H-NO-28092 (it´s actually one of the first items from Proxxon i look at that doesn´t seem like a toy, it weights 20 kgs and got some fine reviews) - should this be an alternative to the JET? i know it´s not variable speed, but i don´t know how much of a deal breaker that is.

thanks again,
Miguel.

Miguel,
I spoke to a guy once who had bought a Proxxon DS460 (their top of the line saw) as a replacement for a Hegner that had reached the end of its life, and he was very impressed by it.
Of course, just because one saw in their range is good it doesn't mean that the rest are too. One thing that jumps out as being a possible issue with the Proxxon that you are looking at is
that the table seems very small (360 x 180mm). If you need a lot of support for the pieces that you are cutting then you would have to create an auxiliary table.
Variable speed is useful to have, but I'd imagine 2 speeds would be something you could live with.

None of the budget priced saws will cut 3/4" timber with great ease. How intricate is the work you are doing? Would a small bandsaw suit you better? It wouldn't cost much more than a scroll saw.

 

[Philip n]

Thanks for the reply Phil,

Quite simple stuff, i do it by hand now but i guess having a scroll saw will help me and will also be fun to do some stuff for my kids with it. The main thing i´m up for is cutting the crest shape in guitar heads, mostly similar to this one: http://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/wp-cont ... dstock.jpg. These are typically made of around 3/4 inch honduras cedar, which is rather soft and workable - shouldn´t be too hard.
Another thing is cutting the circular fit for the ebony fingerboard to the guitar´s soundhole, like this: http://www.kentguitarclassics.com/class ... f-semley-2 . Ebony is much harder, but it will be only about 1/6 inch thick, so it should be doable.

once more, thanks for the reply. It´s been helpful.

all the best,
Miguel.

Miguel,
Thanks for clarifying what it is you are wanting the saw for. I use a basic model Record (the same as the Jet saw you were looking at) and I have cut 3/4" thick hardwood of various species on it. It's slow going but with the right blade and a bit of patience it's achievable. I've cut fairly intricate fretwork in 3/4" using my saw, so what you are trying to make shouldn't be a problem. I've also cut 1/4" Ebony on my saw, so you definitely will not have a problem with 1/16".
It's a shame that there are not more reviews of the Proxxon available as, table size aside, I suspect that it might be a bit better put together than most saws in this price range.
By the way, those Jose Luis Romanillos guitars are beautiful.