Tool History - when was the Bevel-edged Chisel born?

[Jacob]

OK. Prove that b/e chisels were being made during the 18th and early 19th centuries. So far, we can't find any examples. You say they must be there - prove it.

Occam's razor. Which means the simplest explanation should be preferred (as a rule, not guaranteed).
"So far, we can't find any examples" means only that you can't find any examples. It's a very big extrapolation to conclude that this proves they weren't there.
And see plate 4 from Moxon, more chisels, definitely not firmers, probably bevelled (or less than rectangular cross section at least).

 

[bugbear]

"Figure 4.—1703: Only the principal tools used in carpentry are listed by Moxon: the axe (A), adz (B), socket chisel (C), ripping chisel (D), drawknife (E), hookpin (F), bevel (G), plumb line (H), hammer (I), commander (K), crow (L), and jack (M). (Moxon, Mechanick Exercises ..., 1703. Library of Congress.)"

The ripping chisel (D) is one historic form of bevel edged chisel and one I knew of, but hadn't connected with bevel edged chisels. Although no longer commonly known as ripping chisels - the original differing with more common modern bent rippers - they were straight bladed & bevel edged with their name probably implying another intended use. Very probably utilised when creating and cleaning out acutely angular joints in framework.

There may be some ambiguity on this;, and this may not a "chisel" in the meaning of the rest of this tread.

This book:

Lexicon Technicum: Or, An Universal English Dictionary Of Arts And Sciences:
Explaining Not Only the Terms of Art, But the Arts Themselves, Volume 2 (Google eBook, 1723)


says

7. The Ripping Chisel is a Socket Chiffel about an Inch broad, and having a blunt Edge with no Basil to it; its Use is to rip and tear two Pieces of Wood fanned together from one another, by forcing in the blunt Edge between the two Pieces.

(reference)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BWFE ... 22&f=false

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

Ok, let's try again. Can Jacob or anyone offer any examples from England in the late 18th or early 19th century where the ordinary kit of tools for a tradesman included bevel edged chisels, or where the prices in a catalogue suggest that bevel edge chisels were the economical first choice, not an expensive special?

[And please let's remember that the illustrations in Moxon are unreliable, having been copied from the French book 'Principes de l'Architecture' by Felibien, published in 1676 - http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50597k - that's why the picture of a plough plane shows the unfamiliar continental style which does not match the descriptions. Here's Felibien's page with the 'ciseaux' and 'fermoirs' on: (btw, chisel A is a specialist plane maker's tool!)

the 'rabots'

and the 'scies' - I think the copying is pretty obvious.]

So come on guys, let's make this thread a gathering together of evidence, not just speculation.

 

[János]

Hello,

Only very few examples of archaic woodworking hand tools have survived to the present day, so this debate is fully speculative and mostly pointless and academic. Based on the experience and opinion of the blacksmiths of our era, forging a bevel-edged chisel reqiures much more attention and skill than a simpler, but quite adequate one with trapezoidal cross section. The main advantage of a bevel-edge chisel is comfort: the blade could be much lighter, and the "flatter profile" of the blade, and the obtuse angle of the sides make for a more comfortable grip.

These are old enough chisels, and they are not bevel edged... but trapezoidal, and taperd "fishtaillike".

Have a nice day,

János

 

[Jacob]

Ok, let's try again. Can Jacob or anyone offer any examples from England in the late 18th or early 19th century where the ordinary kit of tools for a tradesman included bevel edged chisels, or where the prices in a catalogue suggest that bevel edge chisels were the economical first choice, not an expensive special?.....

No I can't. But I wouldn't expect them to be economical first choice anyway. But that's not the issue. I just doubt the hypothesis of this thread; that bevel edge chisels such as the Nova Zembla example were rare, stopped being made and were rediscovered at a later date. Or that there was a period when only firmer chisels were made.

So come on guys, let's make this thread a gathering together of evidence, not just speculation.

Yes show us the evidence for the above! Then explain it!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Ok, let's try again. Can Jacob or anyone offer any examples from England in the late 18th or early 19th century where the ordinary kit of tools for a tradesman included bevel edged chisels, or where the prices in a catalogue suggest that bevel edge chisels were the economical first choice, not an expensive special?.....

No I can't. But I wouldn't expect them to be economical first choice anyway. But that's not the issue. I just doubt the hypothesis of this thread; that bevel edge chisels such as the Nova Zembla example were rare, stopped being made and were rediscovered at a later date. Or that there was a period when only firmer chisels were made.

So come on guys, let's make this thread a gathering together of evidence, not just speculation.

Yes show us the evidence for the above! Then explain it!

Jacob - do you struggle to understand basic English, or are you being deliberately disingenuous?

Here's the original question again. It seems that bevel-edged chisels, examples of which that can be confidently dated to the very late 19th century and later, are quite commonly available on the secondhand market. However, examples of b/e chisels that can be dated confidently to before the late 19th century are absent from the secondhand market. There are examples dating to the late 16th century, but between that date and the late 19th, they seem to disappear. Can anybody find any examples of b/e chisels that can confidently be dated to between the 17th and late 19th century? Can anybody explain why they suddenly became commoner around the late 19th/early 20th centuries?

So far, it seems that they disappear from the literature, too. The one example that Gaz turned up is apparently more a form of froe than a chisel (which is another question - why that shape for use as a wood splitter?).

So far, a lot of research, some speculation, but no answers. And no examples of 18th/early to mid 19th century b/e chisels, either.

 

[Jacob]

............. Can anybody find any examples of b/e chisels that can confidently be dated to between the 17th and late 19th century?

Do you have examples of firmer chisels which can confidently be dated to between the 17th and late 19th century, from collections which don't include bevel edged chisels?

Can anybody explain why they suddenly became commoner around the late 19th/early 20th centuries?

All these things becomes commoner, as we approach modern times and increased industrial activity. Older examples are lost, wear out etc. It's a self evident truth

So far, it seems that they disappear from the literature, too.

You mean they were in earlier literature but not later?

The one example that Gaz turned up is apparently more a form of froe than a chisel (which is another question - why that shape for use as a wood splitter?).

I turned it up, if you look back. It's clearly a bevel edged chisel. So is the Nova Zembla example. There seem to be no simple firmer chisels on either page. Had they disappeared too or were awaiting invention? So far, wild speculation.
Don't worry I'm not going to post again in this thread. There seems to be zero positive evidence of the mysterious bevel edge gap, merely a severe lack of evidence of continuity (of modern firmer chisels too).
I suspect that modern chisels were all developed at approx. the same time (for any particular manufacturer) as they all had antecedents, would have been in demand and are technically very simple.
Let me know when you find something positive!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Oh, I give up!

Jacob - if you read back through this thread, you will find answers to all those questions.

 

[Harbo]

Heres some Egyptian Chisels:

Making things like this:

And here's some passed down through the family - my Great Grandfather was a wheelwright in the 1850's

Not a bevel edge in sight!

Rod

 

[Jacob]

.....
And here's some passed down through the family - my Great Grandfather was a wheelwright in the 1850's
....
Not a bevel edge in sight!

Rod

A wheelwright wouldn't have much use for a bevel edge chisel. They were definitely around in the 1850s, which kinda proves my point; just cos you can't see them doesn't mean they weren't around.
Another point of course is that the bulk of woodwork esp in early 19C would be large scale industrial - ships, transport, etc and the heavier tools would be very much in demand and hence more common. But they were still making fine furniture and it's so unlikely that they would somehow have 'forgotten' about BE chisels.

 

[GazPal]

We had some bevel edged chisels dating from around 1820 among my great great great grandfather's kit, but the bevel edges only travelled approx 2" up the blade before reverting to firmer cross-section.

------------

In terms of ye olde worlde ripping chisels being unbevelled? Bevel edged chisels were nicknamed "ripping chisels" because they can be used sideways - remember side bevels tend to be blunt - to cleave/rip small billets and create plugs for skirting and architrave fixes. It's an alternative use and name for the same tool.

 

[Jacob]

The question seems to be being interpreted as "when was the first appearance of a modern BE chisel in a catalogue" which should be easy enough to answer.
Checked my catalogues but 2012 (Axminster) is the best I could do but I'm sure they were around a lot earlier.

Another problem is in the nature of the material. Potttery, glass, gold, silver all survive really well but iron rusts. Thin iron rusts faster. Old iron tools are likely to be recycled and not found abandoned, or hidden and hoarded like valuables.

 

[Corneel]

Just soem examples, there is much more available on firmer chisels in the 19th century:

We have of course the Seaton chest, an almost complete cabinet makers chest from 1797. Only firmers in this chest.

Isn't there the Smiths Keys, 1817, the illustrated guide of everything Sheffield made? Does anyone know what chisels are in that guide?

Nicholson in Mechaniks comapanion, 1850, describes the chisel with a slight taper from the edge towards the handle and a larger taper on the sides from the face to the back. No bevel edged chisels in his book. http://shop.toolemera.com/PdfSamples/mechcompsample.pdf

I have two Dutch sources from the 19th century (sorry not on the Internet so I can't give links, you'll have to believe me :shock: ), without bevel edged chisels, only firmer types.

So, it indeed looks like bevel edge chisels went out of fashion somewhere in the 17th or 18th century. But it is very difficult to prove something didn't exist, while it is much easier the other way around when you find a specimen.

 

[GazPal]

I think it would be interesting to uncover when Far Eastern carpenters came to adopt bevel edged chisels within their tool selection, as parallels can be drawn between Far & Middle Eastern and Western tool developments due to trade and migration. Japanese chisels particularly have a tendency to adhere rigidly to traditional forms - with many traditions originating in mainland Asia - and tools have changed very little over the centuries.

"Chisel (nomi), steel / wood, maker unknown, Japan, 1875-1892"

Japanese bevel edged chisels (Nomi) were used in conjunction with firmer chisels (Usu-nomi), but here is a link to a few other chisel types.

http://dougukan.jp/contents-en/modules/ ... .php?id=27

Reasoning based on literature is perfectly fine, BUT not many craftsmen wrote of their methods or tooling and whilst Nicholson, Moxon, Rubo, et al may have many answers, they were among a privileged few with access to printers and do not have all of the answers. Being a writer doesn't make him/her of any particular use as a craftsman/woman. If Moxon's diagrams are deemed ambiguous/inaccurate (Often typically artist's impressions involving scant knowledge of the subject matter) it's not too unreasonable to doubt the efficacy of his and other's information, without further investigation and experimentation.

Iron shod Roman hand planes and Egyptian dovetails were thought not to exist until their discovery and yet we still insist our predecessors somehow lacked our capability to develop and produce. Yes, they lacked a number of technological resources, but far more of their knowledge has been lost through the passage of time than we may ever be capable of re-discovering. An item's absence does not mean it did not exist. It simply means it is not present and may somehow have been lost at some point in the past.

Furthermore, the lack of bevel edged chisels within the Seaton chest does not disprove their existence. The reason being it holds an incomplete inventory of original tools and includes replacement items. It could very well have been his secondary kit and his primary toolkit may have been used up or disposed of outside his descending family circle. Useful tools tend to be used up, re-cycled or adapted into other tools. Craftsmen tend to be a resourceful lot and will tend to buy or adapt tooling to suit particular tasks. Many adapt tooling to fit our hands, as well as certain tasks. I feel we should be willing to make such adaptations instead of elevating certain tools to such a status where we find ourselves the ones needing to adapt, or complaining an otherwise perfectly suitable tool's handle doesn't fit and giving this as a reason for disposal or lack of use.

In short, if firmer chisels were the only type available to me I would adapt a few to possess extra bevels for dovetailing.

 

[Jacob]

Another question is what exactly is the definition of a bevel edge.
I'd say this has bevel edges (albeit rounded) and bevel edges have been around from the year dot (as I said at the start of this thread). and in the east too.

I'd also repeat that IMHO it is extremely improbable that something so useful and widely known* should suddenly have gone out of fashion, and then been brought back in again, at a time when woodwork manufacturing was at it's height in Britain.

*PS and so easy to produce, by forging, grinding, filing, casting etc.

 

[bugbear]

I've checked my copy of Goodman "The History of Woodworking Tools" and he doesn't even mention bevel edged chisels. I think he regards it as a very minor variation (in his terms)

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

I'd also repeat that IMHO it is extremely improbable that something so useful and widely known* should suddenly have gone out of fashion, and then been brought back in again, at a time when woodwork manufacturing was at it's height in Britain.

One thing for sure, they did go out of fashion. I have no idea why. But you just don't find them in the 19th century books and catalogues, until they suddenly reappeared again at the end of the century. It's weird indeed. Some were still probably made for special purposes. But the mainstream chisel for sale was a firmer type.

 

[bugbear]

As I continue to dig through time I can report that Nicholson "Mechanics Companion" 1831 makes no mention of bevel edged chisels, nor does Young "Every Man his Own Mechanic" (my copy published 1891, first published 1882).

Both volumes list and illustrate types of chisel, so the omission might be deemed "explicit".

Edit; Apologies to Andy T who had already cited Young's book.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

So when did they first re-appear? That's what we are all dying to hear.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

So when did they first re-appear? That's what we are all dying to hear.

Jacob - re-read the thread, and you will have your answer. It is, after all, what the entire thread is about.