The great 'Double Glazing Con'

[Flynnwood]

I'm about 7 years into linseed oil paints and the difference is astonishing. I wish I had known about it sooner.

Just for info; if anyone buys a new Audi today (or several other car manufacturers) they are painted with water based paint.

 

[zb1]

I need to replace a window and want to improve the sound insulating performance but can't get the figures for triple glazing or acoustic double glazing to see which is best.

Asymmetric units are the best value for money option. You can get special acoustic laminated glass but it costs a fair bit more. Phone a local IGU manufacturer or one of the nationals and ask to speak to their tech dept. If they ask whether you are trade just say you are specifying for a job that is going out to tender.

According to Pilkington's online glass spec a 4-16-4 give you a 31dB reduction and a 4-16-6 give 34dB reduction with standard annealed glass. Using Pilkington Optiphon(?) a 4-16-6.8 gives you a 36dB reduction.

 

[MIGNAL]

Going back 20 years I replaced the original Victorian windows in my sisters house. Out of 6 windows only one showed any sign of wood rot - which happened to be a large bay window. Even then the rot was only in one corner. The rest were in extremely good order, although rather thick with paint. 100 year old windows in softwood, perfectly sound. I was amazed, especially since I had replaced other softwood windows that had rotted and that appeared to be less than 20 years old!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, the only piece of fascia board I had to replace had been replaced before. The old timber was so much better.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, the only piece of fascia board I had to replace had been replaced before. The old timber was so much better.

The timber is usually the same stuff - redwood. The difference is/was in the paint - linseed oil. There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned. Non-lead fillers and driers work just as well - it's the oil not the lead.

 

[bugbear]

Yes, the only piece of fascia board I had to replace had been replaced before. The old timber was so much better.

The timber is usually the same stuff - redwood. The difference is/was in the paint - linseed oil. There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned. Non-lead fillers and driers work just as well - it's the oil not the lead.

Interesting; any links to support for this (other than the people selling it, of course) ?

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The paint may or may not have influenced it, but the timber itself was much more solid and heavier - slower grown, much, much closer annual rings.

 

[Jacob]

The paint may or may not have influenced it, but the timber itself was much more solid and heavier - slower grown, much, much closer annual rings.

Not necessarily so.
The biggest difference in older timber is that larger trees were extracted from virgin forest, which provided us with wider boards from a wider range of species, now difficult to obtain.
I've planed up big old timbers from old buildings and there is no discernible difference between 200 year old and modern redwood in my (admittedly limited) direct experience.
But there's a huge difference in the paints used. I am now using linseed oil paint on old and new work and the improved durability is beyond doubt. It surprised me - I normally don't believe any sales spiels and just take it for granted they are all rip offs!

 

[Jacob]

Yes, the only piece of fascia board I had to replace had been replaced before. The old timber was so much better.

The timber is usually the same stuff - redwood. The difference is/was in the paint - linseed oil. There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned. Non-lead fillers and driers work just as well - it's the oil not the lead.

Interesting; any links to support for this (other than the people selling it, of course) ?

BugBear

It's a developing idea based on the experience of people using these paints. I should have said is being overturned.
There is no particular evidence that lead itself accounts for longevity, other than by association.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I've got a mate that runs a commercial painters merchants. I'll ask him, he'll have had loads of feedback I imagine.

 

[bugbear]

It's a developing idea based on the experience of people using these paints.

Is there a forum(*) where this is discussed or something? Who are these people?

BugBear

(*) In a world where there's a large and active forum for discussing torches, I'd believe anything!

 

[Jacob]

It's a developing idea based on the experience of people using these paints.

Is there a forum(*) where this is discussed or something? Who are these people?

BugBear

(*) In a world where there's a large and active forum for discussing torches, I'd believe anything!

Google "linseed oil paint"

 

[Jacob]

I've got a mate that runs a commercial painters merchants. I'll ask him, he'll have had loads of feedback I imagine.

I could be wrong but he will probably will know nothing about linseed oil paints such as Allbacks. They aren't mainstream at all, but are becoming better known, particularly in the worlds of conservation and "green building".

 

[bugbear]

It's a developing idea based on the experience of people using these paints.

Is there a forum(*) where this is discussed or something? Who are these people?

BugBear

(*) In a world where there's a large and active forum for discussing torches, I'd believe anything!

Google "linseed oil paint"

I was after the "it's the oil not the lead" information you were quoting. Got a more specific link than a general google?

I can find plenty of bold claims by people selling the stuff! Common sense says that poisonous white lead might be a better deterrent to insect damage and rot than a (nearly) edible vegetable oil.

BugBear

 

[RogerS]

This is quite a useful link http://www.tendringdc.gov.uk/sites/defa ... _27910.pdf

as is the SPAB website.

I'm with Phil on the issue of older timber being better. Taking out some old windows, the grain is beautifully straight, hardly any knots and very tightly packed growth rings. Modern softwood in comparison is c**p.

 

[Jacob]

.....

Is there a forum(*) where this is discussed or something? Who are these people?

BugBear

(*) In a world where there's a large and active forum for discussing torches, I'd believe anything!

Google "linseed oil paint"

I was after the "it's the oil not the lead" information you were quoting. Got a more specific link than a general google?

I can find plenty of bold claims by people selling the stuff! Common sense says that poisonous white lead might be a better deterrent to insect damage and rot than a (nearly) edible vegetable oil.

BugBear

ALL the info about modern linseed oil pain durability is about paint without lead.
It is durable without lead.
From this it seems reasonable to infer that it's the linseed oil not the lead which made old linseed oil paint durable.
Proving it is another issue, but as nobody will use lead anyway, proving that lead paint is durable is fairly pointless.

 

[zb1]

I'm with Phil on the issue of older timber being better. Taking out some old windows, the grain is beautifully straight, hardly any knots and very tightly packed growth rings. Modern softwood in comparison is c**p.

Try getting FAS not Vths. Good softwood is out there if you specify it and are willing to pay the extra. It does take a bit of sourcing but it is out there. I think it's more a scale of economy thing, the mill can shift much more Vths quality which most people find 'good enough' for a lot less labour than sorting everything. I've even managed to find some good stuff in with the Vths and U/S if I happen to be at the merchants on delivery day before they drag the good stuff out for their bigger accounts.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I've got a mate that runs a commercial painters merchants. I'll ask him, he'll have had loads of feedback I imagine.

I could be wrong but he will probably will know nothing about linseed oil paints such as Allbacks. They aren't mainstream at all, but are becoming better known, particularly in the worlds of conservation and "green building".

Absolutely, it makes perfect sense that a bloke who has spent best part of 25 years in the professional paint trade, which incidentally, supply niche markets as well as "Magnolia" would know nothing about.....well....paint

But I could be wrong!

 

[Jacob]

I'm with Phil on the issue of older timber being better. Taking out some old windows, the grain is beautifully straight, hardly any knots and very tightly packed growth rings. Modern softwood in comparison is c**p.

Try getting FAS not Vths. Good softwood is out there if you specify it and are willing to pay the extra. It does take a bit of sourcing but it is out there. I think it's more a scale of economy thing, the mill can shift much more Vths quality which most people find 'good enough' for a lot less labour than sorting everything. I've even managed to find some good stuff in with the Vths and U/S if I happen to be at the merchants on delivery day before they drag the good stuff out for their bigger accounts.

Yep. My last lot of unsorted Swedish redwood was absolutely top notch and as good as any redwood I've found in old buildings. I always buy it (it is only sold) unseen, by grade, on the understanding that it is straight from the heap (as graded by the Swedish saw mill not sorted by the timber merchant here) and not someone else's left overs i.e. all customers get the same deal you can't pick and choose. You can complain if it is inferior but it rarely is.
Interestingly I also bought 5th sawn 1" boards to replace old floor boards - they appear to be identical in terms of growth rings knots and general appearance. In other words the Victorians graded and selected their timber in 1874 in much the same way that we do. No surprise really.
The fact that later joiners used poorer quality timber has nothing to do with changes in the trees; they can use better stuff if they want to.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The market was a lot smaller and the forests more extensive - the rubbish probably didn't even hit the market.