Table Saw - made in Taiwan / Germany

[anaminal]

Hi all,

After 10 years with an Axminster 'hobby' saw I'm ready to upgrade to proper cabinet saw. I have woodworking business but it's a sideline so only manage a few hours a week in the shop.

I really want to prioritise build quality, precision and reliability - my work tends to require more precision and close attention to detail. I also have limited time at the workshop so ideally something that doesn't need constant pampering.

I'm currently considering either the Scheppach Precisa 4.0 (made in Germany) or the Laguna Fusion 3 (made in Taiwan).

Can anyone comment on either (or both) of these saws? Does one perform better in any way than the other?

​

 

[Ttrees]

Doubt you will find a comparison between, unless one has some feature over the other.
i.e longer arbor for dado stacks, sliding table, or motor power.


I could ask do you plan on moving the saw, do you plan on making a heavy base up for it?
If not moving it, then I'd doubt you would have to baby either, being an occasional user.

One thing you might be interested in is the depth of the table for inserts, should you want ZCI for various operations

Some machines have very lousy real estate in regards to properly and safely supporting a custom timber insert,
i.e either a little sliver of timber to support the work on the other side of the blade slot,
or needing to use a really thin board as the casting isn't deep enough...

which is the one thing an occasional user might find an annoyance, should it swell slightly and pinch on the blade and refuse to be removed without breaking.

My old Startrite 275 has ample bedding to support a custom insert, I can't understand why all similar machines aren't made as such.

Perhaps a non issue if you have access to cheap back yard machinist who can
give you a big blank or two, or whatever.

Tom

 

[Sideways]

Of the two, Laguna. Yes it's Taiwanese made but they are making an effort.

The Scheppach brand includes a lot of VERY cheap made in China hobby machines.

You can't buy Laguna at Aldi.

 

[anaminal]

Doubt you will find a comparison between, unless one has some feature over the other.
i.e longer arbor for dado stacks, sliding table, or motor power.

Thanks for the response. Re moving it, I have a small commercial workshop (after 10 years in my 5x5m cellar workshop, finally have room to breathe) so it will be put in place and left alone.

I haven't ever used a ZCI, my current TS doesn't allow for them (though the clearance is actually quite close) but something to explore on the new machine. Any idea if either of these saws have better support for this?

 

[doctor Bob]

I'd go second hand and get a slider if you have room.

 

[anaminal]

Of the two, Laguna. Yes it's Taiwanese made but they are making an effort.

The Scheppach brand includes a lot of VERY cheap made in China hobby machines.

You can't buy Laguna at Aldi.

Hah that's a good point - though surely that's only their bottom end products? I assume the 2 grand saws are made in-country?

 

[anaminal]

I'd go second hand and get a slider if you have room.

Don't think I'd use it. I've got a ts55 for sheets, though I rarely work with them, and then for the last 6 or so years I've had a cross-cut sled for anything slide-y.

 

[Ttrees]

I guessed these machines had the same specs , and thats the end of comparing with each other, DEPTH OF CUT @ 90. 79mm on the Laguna
Cutting height at 90° max. 87 mm on the Scheppach

I don't know if there's any manufacturers of WW machinery in Germany,
not of the sheet metal type, the machine is cheap looking to me.

Try Austrian sourced instead if wanting to buy from thereabouts, ala hammer/felder.

Also worth mentioning looking for a Startrite 12" machine with 105mm depth of cut, and 3 horse motor... can be bought cheaply, i.e 500 for a nice one with a sliding table.

or Wadkin machine of whatever description, likely for the same cost, more than double from what I've seen.
or Sedgwick 315 should you not mind the single slot in the table and the extra bit of weight, and motor power to match IIRC

Tom

 

[Sideways]

Hah that's a good point - though surely that's only their bottom end products? I assume the 2 grand saws are made in-country?

Why would you assume that ?
Axminster go up to a four and a half grand table saw in their range but it's still made for them by Harvey in China.

Germany has great brands still like Otto Martin, Panhans, and Altendorf but their prices are heading for an order of magnitude greater.

A German name doesn't mean it was made there
At the lower end of the market, they offshore like everyone else.

 

[Droogs]

I would be looking at either the laguna or one of the new Harvey goldtops

 

[MikeK]

Hah that's a good point - though surely that's only their bottom end products? I assume the 2 grand saws are made in-country?

As Roy stated, the retail price is not an indicator of where the machine was made. Many brands sold in Germany by German and Austrian firms are not made there. Altendorf, Martin, SCM, and Felder are made on the European continent, but carry a hefty price tag. Both SCM and Felder make a less expensive brand for hobbyists and smaller commercial shops. The Minimax (SCM) and Hammer (Felder) machines are priced well above the Scheppach, Holzmann, and Bernardo machines, but in my opinion (and experience) are worth the extra money.

 

[anaminal]

Why would you assume that ?
Axminster go up to a four and a half grand table saw in their range but it's still made for them by Harvey in China.

Germany has great brands still like Otto Martin, Panhans, and Altendorf but their prices are heading for an order of magnitude greater.

A German name doesn't mean it was made there
At the lower end of the market, they offshore like everyone else.

Ah yes, well I'm basing the 'made in Germany' on the ad-copy from Machine Mart's listing: "Designed in Germany, manufactured in Germany and tested in Germany, the Scheppach Precisa 4.0 precision tilt arbor circular saw bench is built to last.... " Yada yada

 

[Jameshow]

Of the two, Laguna. Yes it's Taiwanese made but they are making an effort.

The Scheppach brand includes a lot of VERY cheap made in China hobby machines.

You can't buy Laguna at Aldi.

Not even in the frozen isle?!

 

[Ttrees]

I think @deema or @Sideways might have a 275 their doing up, have a look at their resto threads, it won't be cheap, but possibly even better than original.
...or just follow their thread on the overhaul and buy one which looks very tidy.

Getting the depth of cut specs might prove difficult regarding a machine which you can move, although I'm sure some other options exist like Axi, Record power or SIP for example, not as nice as vintage with solid rails,

I've got the Startrite @just under 200kg, and another saw bout 50kg heavier on castors
(base is thick compared to sheet metal cabinets on 200kg machines)
It would be beyond 250kg is where it would start to become noticeable, if you intend to be moving about something which you don't require,
various Wadkins and Sedgwicks are movable in this regards, just about...
The extra weight is in the double trunnions, and base.

should you not be looking for something Italian like a SCM machine which looks/appears to be substantially heavier again, although I haven't looked at the specs of those, are those 12" machines.

Don't discount the three phase ones, can buy a VFD for a hundred quid, if you
look specifically for dual voltage machines, (see 240v on the motor nameplate)
with a delta,D, or triangle symbol beside it (which is low voltage configuration for 240volts)

Provided it is a fairly modern motor, i.e not something over 50 years old which has some odd motor speed and not 2 pole or 4 pole like most.
(I guess you are not looking at the oldest thing you can find, that's entirelly made from cast iron)

(some Wadkin's are fixed high voltage 380/400v motors, as may be Sedgewick)
which means a fancy VFD, easily 50% more expensive, though none here on this forum have chanced those, some on the metalwork forums have had positive things to say)

Rather good machine IMO, if you're looking for value for money.
I need to give mine an overhaul soon, not in a rush to go at before the lads start,
I may feel inspired to do some altercations or whatever,
and besides I gotta bandsaw to fettle which I want to finish off.

 

[Sideways]

Ah yes, well I'm basing the 'made in Germany' on the ad-copy from Machine Mart's listing: "Designed in Germany, manufactured in Germany and tested in Germany, the Scheppach Precisa 4.0 precision tilt arbor circular saw bench is built to last.... " Yada yada

Actually, it's interesting to try and figure these companies out.
I remember Scheppach from the 80's and 90's in their yellow and brown brand colours.
They sold for a little more money than the French Kity machines that I bought back then. They were a little better built but the tables of their saws weren't as good as the cast alloy used by Kity.
They were definitely built in Germany then.
Roll on a few decades, Scheppach bought Kity in 2004, Changed their brand colours to blue 2008 ish, have been expanding the product range into home+garden+compressors etc and evolving the co into a sales+service+trading company (their words).
They announce the building offices and warehouses, but not factories.
They had 100 employees in 2004.
Their PR now proudly proclaims high growth and talks about sales targets.
The photos from the corporate part of their website does show a truly old maching centre of some type, plus some guys working on sheet metal fabrication, welding and spray paint.

I am sure that you're right. They wouldn't advertise something if it weren't true. The Precisa 4 will be one of the machines with locally made parts, assembled and tested in Germany.

But elsewhere in the range Mr Jerry will sell you exactly the same saw he sells to Scheppach, Einhell, Evolution, and several other brands in whatever colour scheme you like

https://mycasting-cn.en.made-in-chi...urope-Standard-Motor-Over-Load-Protector.html
USD 67 to 90 each but you have to order at least 200 pieces.

 

[Spectric]

A question to ask is can you actually avoid any asian input into anything these days, does made in such a country actually mean made or just assembled from imported components or even just a collection of parts in kit form that the company assembles into the final product and can then claim made here.

What we cannot just assume is that everything made in say China is not going to be the same quality as made in Germany or anywhere else because they do have the ability and skills to deliver outstanding quality, our problem is the middleman who approaches an asian firm and wants something at a price so as to maximise their profits, they could just as easily ask for something as good as the best on the market but the price would jump or they would need to order a much larger volume and accept lower profits. Here is the other problem, US as the buyers because they can only sell if we are willing to buy and accept the quality so if we were willing to pay more and raise our quality acceptance level then quality goes up. Some companies actually base engineers in asia to oversee the QC of the products being made and I have seen some really well engineered products made in China, India and Malaysia that you could not fault.

Maybe we have given the asians the wrong impression of ourselves, they may think we just like cheap tack and don't like parting with our money so default to such a level thinking they are pleasing us !

 

[tpaul]

Faced with the same problem 10 years ago I settled on a Felder combination machine and have never regretted it. Buy it right and cry once

Paul Mc Cann

 

[Fireburst]

I just took delivery of a Laguna F3, and I couldn’t be happier with it. It certainly offers plenty of bang for the buck and is a solid piece of machinery.

 

[Reffc]

Of the two, the Laguna Fusion 3 would be my choice. I wouldn't write off all Chinese machines either. Some are much better than others. I have a Charnwood W650 in my professional 'shop in daily use and it's been a good bit of kit with a few corners cut in things like quality of fasteners (easily replaced) and is relatively easy to set up with a decent rip fence and sliding carriage...just poor dust extraction. I'd also rate the Axminster professional AP254 as a reasonable saw, but of the three above, the Fusion 3 would be the one I'd pick if wanting another for a reasonable sum. Seems to be a more polished, better quality machine. I have not been impressed with Record branded table saws and not that enamoured with the quality of some of the Scheppach ones I've seen either although they can be a mixed bag and have produced some decent kit too.

 

[SLM]

whilst I understand that many of us are cash rich and time poor, and so there is value in a new machine. Moreover, there will be a warranty!

But, I would always endorse secondhand! These are simple machines, with not a great deal to go wrong; the amount of fettling required of a good secondhand machine can be less than the setup of a new machine.

Of course, if you’re going for top shelf stuff, the saw will be set up by a technician, but that’s another order of magnitude!

There’s loads of saws out there! And do we need another saw in the world?… So picking a lemon needn’t be an issue; my Sedgwick cost me £1500, roughly 1/3 of its cost new. It’s current spec, and was put to work straight away, with only the basic set up checks which you would expect, having moved a machine.