Shellac and Methylated Spirit query.

[Peter Sefton]

I tend to use purple meths for mop cleaning and washing off old polish but do still use industrial methylated spirits (IMS) for diluting white or pale polish. The last IMS I bought was from Quick Sharp in Buckingham 01280 822062 sorry no web site.

The following info is from Rest Express 01285 831668 who are very good for all finishing products but no IMS on the web site.

Methylated Spirit http://www.restexpress.co.uk/acatalog/F ... irits.html

Methylated Spirits is a virgin alcohol prepared for industrial use. Suitable for use as a solvent for knotting, spirit based varnishes, some spirit based paints and French polish.
Methylated Spirits can also be used as a cleaner for paintwork, glassware and for wiping resinous matter from knots prior to knotting.
Methylated Spirits is also commonly used as a fuel for heating/cooking.
Methylated Spirits is commonly known as Denatured Alcohol, Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol) is mixed with a small quantity of Methanol to make it unfit for consumption, and dyed purple.


Fiddes Finishing Spirit http://www.restexpress.co.uk/acatalog/F ... pirit.html

Fiddes Finishing spirit is 90% alcohol with added shellac used for making polishes and for spiriting out process. This product is often favoured by French Polishers over methylated spirits, as meth’s can sometimes leave a residue smear.

As I understand it the purple is to stop the guys drinking it in the park. Life is so unfair.

I usually sign off with cheers Peter

 

[Eric The Viking]

They put pyridine in meths, besides the violet dye, to make it taste better, er, bitter.

Methanol (the main 'denaturing' agent) will cause blindness, apparently, if as little as 10ccs is ingested in one go, slices of lemon notwithstanding.

I'm gonna stick to marker pens, I think, or Evo-Stick, or both, if I use the Evo-Stick first. ;-)

 

[jimi43]

If we're comparing vapours...I would favour nitrocellulose any day of the week....

Don't ya just love the smell of nitro in the morning...! :mrgreen:

(Sorry Robert!)

Jim

 

[Benchwayze]

Hmmmm!

In the 50s, I was serving in a destroyer. Because I could paint signs reasonably well, I was given the job of 'Putty' (Ship's painter). As such I was responsible for the issuing of paint and so on.

I issued one guy a pint of white meths, legitimately, but when he came back a day or so later for another 'issue', I found out that instead of using it only to clean certain machinery, he had consumed most of it with orange cordial. (He was on 'punishment detail', so temporarily had no access to alcohol.) A sad case of alcoholism, that was another nail in the coffin of the daily issue of rum.

I often wonder what eventually happened to him.

John

 

[jimi43]

I often wonder what eventually happened to him.

John

He's probably just a spirit now.... :mrgreen:

Or retired from the Polish navy?

Ok...ok...I'm going...coat on as we speak.... :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[Benchwayze]

Don't forget your hat Jim and close the door softly behind you!!! :lol:

John :mrgreen:

 

[Woodski]

This is a long time bolting the stable door after the thread has bolted, but has anyone ever tried bioethanol to dissolve lac in? Local garden centres seem to have the stuff in small to medium sized bottles and I was thinking this was worth a punt, what with it being clear as day.

FWIW I've used ordinary violet meths and am happy with the result, not so much with the smell but feel if you're into friction polishes that the linseed/tung/liquid paraffin or even baby oil sweetens up the smell enough.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I have some (quite a lot of) meths from Toolstation: It's lost its colour, I think because of UV, and is now pretty much clear.

I assume it wasn't originally coloured with methyl violet.

 

[mind_the_goat]

Try your local dispensing chemist

 

[Eric The Viking]

@Woodski:

What is "bioethanol"?

Unless the rules have changed, methanol was added to ethanol ("denatured") so as to make it undrinkable, because of the excise duty on ethanol (the alcohol in beer, wine and spirits, which is relatively safe). Methanol is poison and causes blindness in small quantities, but chosen because the two are hard to separate by distillation (and it's bloomin' dangerous to try!). The methyl violet was to make this obvious (and I think a mercaptan was added to give it the smell). It's donks since I did this at school, and my memory is shot with holes anyway.

So unless full duty is paid (similar to vodka!), something must be added to bioethanol or it has an exemption (in which case the Christmas punch will be a good home for it!).

So does anyone know, and is it cheap enough to be worth it?

 

[Bluekingfisher]

The reason for the purple dye (which has an acrid taste) is to prevent it from being further distilled into "drinking" alcohol. If you were to store it in an oak cask (without the dye) for 10 years it would be called whisky.

It cannot be bought here, as it can be the US in its raw state without a licence ,underlining what it is to be used for.............perish the thought anyone would turn it into moonshine.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Try your local dispensing chemist

I did just that a few years ago. Asked for about half a litre of ethanol or undyed meths. Offered to sign the Poisons Register an' all. The look of utter disgust the chemist gave me spoke volumes about what he thought I wanted it for, and no amount of explaining french polishing with blond de-waxed shellac changed his mind.

In the end, I used thinned polyurethane varnish, which did a tolerable job. I've always taken my business to other dispensing chemists since then, too.

Might try Finishing Spirit next time I've got a job that needs shellac, though. Thanks to whoever mentioned Finishing Spirit - new one on me!

(P.S. - It was Peter Sefton who mentioned it - thanks, Peter!)

 

[Woodski]

@Woodski:

What is "bioethanol"?

Unless the rules have changed, methanol was added to ethanol ("denatured") so as to make it undrinkable, because of the excise duty on ethanol (the alcohol in beer, wine and spirits, which is relatively safe). Methanol is poison and causes blindness in small quantities, but chosen because the two are hard to separate by distillation (and it's bloomin' dangerous to try!). The methyl violet was to make this obvious (and I think a mercaptan was added to give it the smell). It's donks since I did this at school, and my memory is shot with holes anyway.

So unless full duty is paid (similar to vodka!), something must be added to bioethanol or it has an exemption (in which case the Christmas punch will be a good home for it!).

So does anyone know, and is it cheap enough to be worth it?

<snip>
What is bioethanol fuel?

Bioethanol fuel is quite simply strong alcohol made from European agriculture by the sugar fermentation process. The main sources of sugar required to produce ethanol come from fuel or energy crops, these crops are grown specifically for their energy content. Ethanol can be produced from biomass by the hydrolysis and sugar fermentation processes, this breaks down the cellulostic part of the biomass into sugar solutions that can then be fermented into bioethanol. This Ethanol is then mixed with bittering agents so it cannot be consumed by humans and is then ready for retail sales.
</snip>

It sounds gert lush with ice and a slice :mrgreen: - no seriously, being colourless it looks worth a try...

Apparently a standard and 'odourless' versions are available - the odourless one has the 'best denaturants' whatever those might be - tonsil varnish probably :lol:

Woodski

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks, Woodski.

Before using it with shellac, I think I'd want to know what the 'bittering agent' is (sounds like Bloefeld to me!). It might be worse than methyl violet.

Meanwhile, I optimistically put the garden umbrella up last week end. It's thirsty work...



E.

 

[MIGNAL]

The Fiddes finishing Spirit is pure ethanol with a touch of Shellac added. It's a touch slower in dissolving Shellac than regular Meths - ethanol/methanol mix. Slowest is Isopropyl alcohol. None of this seems to matter much in actual use. The different flash off times are too close.

 

[pointer2null]

To resurrect an old thread (probably still relevent and still asked) - another new equivelent seems to be the bio-ethanol used for these trendy fires.

>96% ethanol,
+ usual denaturants (poison and bitter taste)
but no dye.

http://www.diy.com/departments/la-hacie ... 224_BQ.prd

Also cheaper than meths at around £3/litre

 

[Mr T]

I buy it from my finish suppliers Rydenor at Thirsk, they call it shellac thinners. http://rydenor.co.uk/shellac-thinners?search=shellac thinners

 

[Andrewf]

Just an interesting fact, methanol is highly poisonous, however the cure for methanol poisoning is actually Vodka. Apparently the ethanol in the vodka combines with the methanol and neutralises it. Have used it a couple of times for suspected methanol poisoning.
How do i know this you may ask. Well for years i transported pure methanol and ethanolin huge quantities, and a bottle of vodka was kept in my poison chest, along with other antidotes to other dangerous chemicals.