Sharpening: 1000 vs 16000 grit.

[matthewwh]

it (also) means you don't have to flatten and polish the face - which is probably the biggest time wasting and pointless ritual of the new sharpeners.

Agreed.

I couldn't give a tinkers about freehand or managed, that's a personal choice between two valid methods.

 

[JohnPW]

It seems the video is now private...

 

[Jacob]

...
I have a real soft spot (and quite an accumulation) of these lovely old stones that haven't been cut fully square on all sides. Some of them
have only 1 flat surface, the upper one.

BugBear

If the flat surface is the lower one they are completely useless. Something to be aware of. :roll: I suppose you could fix them to the ceiling?

 

[Trafalgar]

Once the flat side of a cutter is flattened and polished it needs no further work other than regular backing off and stropping. If the strop is flexible at all then fine polishing takes place all the way to the cutting edge when both sides are worked.

Once the flat side of the cutter is flattened and polished, the time spent flattening and polishing it has already been wasted - that's the point!

I'm sorry to press you on this Charles - it's nothing personal. I agree entirely about the beneficial effects of a slightly deformable strop, it just frustrates and fascinates me that a straightforward, all upside, no downside, genuinely useful idea like the ruler trick meets anything other than instant universal adoption.

I have yet to speak to anyone who has a single valid argument against it.

"Once I've wasted half an hour I can get the same effect as I could have achieved in less than a minute" still doesn't cut it for me.

Well, see, the problem with the Ruler Trick is that it has seemingly morphed from a temporary workaround for the very occasional blade one might run across that is more out of flat than one presently has the time to deal with, but for some odd reason must use immediately anyway (hard to imagine that a professional or serious amateur with decades of experience would find himself or herself in such a situation). Anybody routinely confronted with such cutters must be in a semi-comatose state given the state of today's market for after-market blades. Clearly, there is no reason to subject oneself to such torture. I have had remarkable luck with the used tools I've bought over the years. All were relatively easily rectified - backs flattened and polished with a minimal amount of strain. I've never quite understood all the drama and need for workarounds. Once done, it's done. God Bless Record. I think all the plane irons I've had in my shop have been essentially dead flat and polished right to the edge in short order. As I sit here tonight not one jumps out in my mind as having been something that I would characterize as a problem.

So, the real metric is what is actually required on a flat cutter on a day in and day out basis. And this is somewhat deformable strop, judiciously used, either entirely untreated except for the silica naturally found in many leathers, or one treated with a very fine abrasive powder (please, no waxy sticks!). No ruler trick.

Calling flattening and polishing the backs of one's cutting implements, only required once in a tool's lifetime, as 'wasted time' is akin to asserting that it's not necessary to four square project stock accurately before joinery and assembly begin. It is just absurd on its face. Sorry.

Still, most will soon come to this state of being anyway and give relatively decent service in the meantime. But, it's the craftsman's choice - spend fifteen minutes and get it done and out of the way and enjoy consistent service from the tool for the rest of its lifetime. Perhaps it is the "overstaffing" of one's toolbox that's really to blame. Too many tools. There really isn't much time involved in getting a modest and honest kit of tools ready for work. Otherwise, the task can seem insurmountable in the face of a sea of tools the majority of which were redundant at the outset.

 

[Corneel]

I have had remarkable luck with the used tools I've bought over the years. All were relatively easily rectified - backs flattened and polished with a minimal amount of strain. I've never quite understood all the drama and need for workarounds. Once done, it's done. God Bless Record. I think all the plane irons I've had in my shop have been essentially dead flat and polished right to the edge in short order. As I sit here tonight not one jumps out in my mind as having been something that I would characterize as a problem.

Then you've had a lot more luck then me! I only remember once, two nice paring chisels that were very clean and came with a nice hollow in the back. All my other vintage tools needed extensive work, pitting being the largest problem usually. I've still got a big millwrights chisel, 5cm wide, in a drawer somewhere, where the edges are dubbed over at least half a milimeter.

Perhaps it is the "overstaffing" of one's toolbox that's really to blame. Too many tools. There really isn't much time involved in getting a modest and honest kit of tools ready for work.

Ooch, there you've got me.
But they are so nice, and they didn't cost much....

 

[Cheshirechappie]

It seems the video is now private...

Ah - it's not just me that gets that response, then!

Makes you wonder how many people are arguing about a video they haven't actually watched.....

 

[Andy Kev.]

Has any one got much experience of using the Shapton stones? If so how have you got on with them?

One of my past students has some after seeing Rob using them, we have access to them and I have thought about putting them on the website but would like to hear from long time users for their opinions.

Cheers Peter

These are the views of a beginner - I've only been at this woodworking lark 18 months now - so they should perhaps be treated with caution.

I have a set of Shapton stones plus holder as offered by Dictum. The stones are 1,000, 3000 and 8,000. I also bought a 500 stone for rough work but once the edges were sorted out it slipped into redundancy. I had previously had a Cerax 1,000/6,000 combination stone. I'm much happier with the Shaptons because while the Cerax (which worked well) required a 10 minute soak before use, I only have to spray the Shaptons with water and the soak time is the time needed to set up my Veritas Mk II guide.

The results seem, to my untutored eye, to be tip top and consistent. A2 steel is dealt with very quickly indeed and one of the upshots of this is that as my confidence in the system and my ability to use it have grown, I am now sharpening much more often. It really is just a quick job at the end of a session.

I'm not sure that the 8,000 stone is absolutely necessary as the 3,000 seems to produce a pretty sharp edge and from what I've read on here the 8,000 "effect" will be worn off after only a few strokes of the plane. On the other hand as so little time is needed to put that edge on, why not?

I realise I might get my head ripped off for having this kit (particularly the guide) but in my defence I offer the following: I know no-one who has the skills to teach me and as such have to learn from books, DVDs (thank you David Charlesworth and Christopher Schwarz) and the internet. I'm absolutely sure that it is a lot more craftsmanlike (and cheaper!) to sharpen freehand but without a tutor one needs all the help one can get. Therefore I can honestly recommend these stones and perhaps some sort of guide system to any other beginner. (For what it's worth I find that spokeshave blades are a doddle to sharpen by hand but I wouldn't dare to try to put a secondary bevel on them by hand.)

 

[Trafalgar]

I have had remarkable luck with the used tools I've bought over the years. All were relatively easily rectified - backs flattened and polished with a minimal amount of strain. I've never quite understood all the drama and need for workarounds. Once done, it's done. God Bless Record. I think all the plane irons I've had in my shop have been essentially dead flat and polished right to the edge in short order. As I sit here tonight not one jumps out in my mind as having been something that I would characterize as a problem.

Then you've had a lot more luck then me! I only remember once, two nice paring chisels that were very clean and came with a nice hollow in the back. All my other vintage tools needed extensive work, pitting being the largest problem usually. I've still got a big millwrights chisel, 5cm wide, in a drawer somewhere, where the edges are dubbed over at least half a milimeter.

Perhaps it is the "overstaffing" of one's toolbox that's really to blame. Too many tools. There really isn't much time involved in getting a modest and honest kit of tools ready for work.

Ooch, there you've got me.


But they are so nice, and they didn't cost much....

I think the problems start when efforts to rehabilitate essentially ruined tools somehow morph into being orthodox workshop practice. Anything beyond very lightly freckled tools just aren't worth fooling with. There are better vintage tools on the market and certainly the choice in new tools and replacement cutters is broad enough to be able to avoid the issue altogether. I avoided the problem simply by asking sellers the condition of the tools I was buying if it wasn't obvious from photos. Really, a very simple process.

While there are books dealing specifically with how to refurbish used tools, I don't own one single book on the craft of woodworking itself that starts with the premise that one acquires rust-encrusted tools with which to start their journey in woodworking. And no wonder, it's ridiculous.

Nor do any of these books provide methods of sharpening to accommodate or work around moderately to severely pitted steel. I've read no credible manual on the craft of woodworking that ever has. Orthodox methods assume clean steel - a perfectly reasonable assumption. If the pitting is all the way to the cutting edge then the little slip that results from using the Ruler Trick won't be effective anyway. It simply is not large enough or deep enough to work past anything but the lightest pitting, pitting that could have been gotten rid of in the first place simply by lapping.

A slight lift will allow one to remove rag on a bellied cutter that won't lie flat. But the slight lift needs to be done at the strop, not a stone. And if the strop is relatively compressible the lift itself likely won't be necessary.

And the 30,000 ft. view begs the question -- who in the world would be using a preponderance of bellied chisels and plane irons in the first place? A professional over three decades into the craft? Makes no sense in that amount of time a kit of tools haven't come into flat if by nothing other than sheer accident.

 

[Corneel]

Ha ha, we live in different parts of the world obviously! It's all part of the fun, when you are so inclined.

 

[Trafalgar]

Ha ha, we live in different parts of the world obviously! It's all part of the fun, when you are so inclined.

People do have fun with it, but it is ancillary to woodworking. One could have a stunning career and never lay hands on a vintage tool or make a habit of restoring them for use. My personal goal is to leave a bunch of tools behind that are nothing but nubs, rather than bushel-baskets full of ones that I restored.

I do have some old tools but they were well cared for before coming into my hands. I think that sort of continuity is more appealing than the converse.

 

[n0legs]

People do have fun with it, but it is ancillary to woodworking. One could have a stunning career and never lay hands on a vintage tool or make a habit of restoring them for use. My personal goal is to leave a bunch of tools behind that are nothing but nubs, rather than bushel-baskets full of ones that I restored.
.

Agreed.
The frequency of these debates makes me wonder if these extremely sharp tools ever see a bit of wood. Might be a lot of `all show and no go' with some.

 

[Trafalgar]

There are people on the boards that have kits of tools that dwarf the combined kits of, say, Alan Peters, Tage Frid, and Frank Klausz combined. Not to mention power equipment to go along with the equal or better of these same craftsmen.

There is a point past which it becomes just plain strange, even if a lot of people are doing it. Nobody begrudges an adequate kit, but some of those I've seen beggar belief in an homage to pure redundancy.

I'd be looking for honing shortcuts too I suppose.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall and watch the mental wheels turn as somebody decides which the four or five No. 7s they own (for all intents identical planes) will be used that day to shoot a few edges for a panel glue-up. It's bizarre.

 

[Jacob]

It seems the video is now private...

Ah - it's not just me that gets that response, then!

Makes you wonder how many people are arguing about a video they haven't actually watched.....

I watched a few minutes of it but it was the same old stuff and a bit of a promo for Woodriver planes. Some very shiny tools there!
Vaguely interesting to hear that he's into freehand but I'm not desperate to find out the details. It was bad enough watching Deneb P struggling away so seriously with a scrub plane on a LN video. :lol:

"NEW! - Purchase any Woodriver Plane at robcosman.com and receive a FREE three month dual membership subscription to "Rob Cosman's Online Workshops""

Wowee!!

 

[Graham Orm]

I can't believe this thread has got to 4 pages in 29 hours. I can't be bothered reading it all, but my 2 penneth is a leather strop. No matter what medium you use, I always find that the strop with aluminium oxide on it as a final quick polish makes a noticeable difference.

 

[Corneel]

Not so judgemental guys. To each his own.

 

[JohnCee]

I think the speed of Rob's sharpening is remarkable.

It is for sure.
But he manages to pack in a large amount of unnecessarily frantic rubbing in the short time he takes.

 

[bugbear]

But he manages to pack in a large amount of unnecessarily frantic rubbing in the short time he takes.

No effin about - thrust away furiously, fast and efficient.

Perhaps Butler and Cosman have more in common than either would care to admit.

Bugbear

 

[iNewbie]

I don't think Cosman wipes his on a tissue though...

 

[David C]

I read a few posts, but it was the same old stuff.

Jacob's video efforts eagerly awaited.........

David

 

[Trafalgar]

The most difficult part of it all is grinding the hollow and videos really can't teach it IMO. You just have to get in there and do it. Might even draw temper on a cutter trying to learn but there is no substitute. And once one is successful producing a hollow the rest is register the hollow and hone, or register the hollow lift slightly and hone.

Of course beginners shouldn't start with pitted steel and bellied cutters, and one wonders why anybody else would want to waste their time on it either.