Separate machines or combination machine.

[heimlaga]

There is a thing that I would like hearing your oppinions about. It would of great help in my long term planning.

First I will tell the facts that have to be concerned. For the first time in my life I have incomes enough to buy some stationary machinery for my woodworking hobby. I work in construction so at times I could also earn some extra by doing joinery for a profit. Until recently I have made do with my uncle's old home made tablesaw and a cheap far-east lathe. Some months ago I bought a small planer/thicknesser combination secondhand as a kind of stop gap solution.
I share the shop with my father but within a couple of years we plan to split it up between us.

So now my big question is which route to go.
Should I start aquiring better machines one by one or wait until I have my own shop chansing that I can afford a combination machine
then and have time to fix it up? What would be the best route to go?

Excample of the type combination machine I consider:
http://www.blocket.se/stockholm/Snicker ... w=3&last=1

 

[colinc]

Hi,

how is the weather in Finland? I expect you have to have a decent workshop to be able to work comfortably at this time of year?

I'm no expert, just an amateur woodworker, but have never used a combination machine myself. I find that even combining a planer/thicknesser in one unit is a nuisance at timea and I am planning getting a planer soon just for the added convenience.

I'd say go for seperates if you have the space and take your time looking around, perhaps you will be able to find some good used machines if you are patient. That's the way I am going as they don't build them like they used to!!

What's your supply situation where you are - do you have a 3-phase supply? If you do then that opens up the field.

regards

Colin

 

[Phil Hansen]

I had a combination machine some years back.
Extremely annoying to work with as you are constantly changing settings.
Got separate machines now (granted I do have the space) and am far happier.
HTH

Phil

 

[Phil Sewell]

Certainly if you plan to do it semi commercially then in my opinion seperates are the way to go. Working alone has the benefit of being able to leave machines set up so you can get new parts out quickly after the inevitable cock-ups. A combination machine would drive me nuts!

Phil.

 

[jeffinfrance]

as a combi owner, i wiash i had gone the separate route.

jeff

 

[heimlaga]

Thanks for your input so far.

Of cause I consider second hand. New machinery is completely out of question prizewise.
Cast iron machinery from the 1950-ies and -60ies can be had for resonable prizes in Sweden. Getting them brought home is a bit complicated and risky but possible. In Finland there is rarely anything in between the cheapest kind of chineese junk and brand new big industrial machines.

Semi-comercial would be an overstatement but now and then people approach me asking me to do small joinery jobs and it seems like I could easily make some old machinery pay themselves back when construction work is slow in mid winter.

The main advantage of a combination machine is that it requires less heated space to pay for. That in turn means smaller construction costs and less space to heat which means less time spent making firewood and more time for woodworking. Three phase electricity is found everywhere in the countryside. In every home and barn.

 

[davin]

Hi heimlaga.

I am moving back to Finland later this year with my family.
And have been deciding whether to bring my machinery over from the UK, or sell it here and buy new (or secondhand in Finland.
But you are right, all I can find is big new industrial machinery (http://www.malmintera.fi http://www.penope.fi/) (apologies Uk chaps for the Finnish only websites)
I cant find any suppliers of used secondhand machinery. Do you know anywhere ?
Was also looking at Sweden (luna, Ecja, Moretens)
Ok but very expensive.
Or I could load a container up with old UK machinery and become a machine exporter.would probably make more money than I do as a furniture maker !
I personally prefer seperate machines, combination machines are fine if you are super organised, and I am not!
Good luck and happy new year..

Just found these ones,
http://www.blocket.se/skaraborg/Snicker ... ?ca=18&w=3

http://www.blocket.se/stockholm/Snicker ... ?ca=18&w=3

 

[dickm]

I'm sure separates are the way to go if you have the space, but don't dismiss combis out of hand. There are some good ones around (the Startrite Roblands seem pretty good). My ancient Lurem is surprisingly versatile, and takes up minimal room.

There is an absolute bargain Hitachi on the For Sale section of the forum. Bit of a long way to export it, mind - getting it up to Scotland was what finally decided me against buying it .

 

[Simo Ahtola]

Good Evening,

I am from the Finnish west coast as well and at lest one company here close by is selling even used machinery. http://www.chicagowood.fi/index.html

Br. Simo

 

[heimlaga]

Justus who runs chicagowood is a decent fellow as far as I know. I bought some morticer bits from him once. He lives nearby so I picked them up in his home.

Thanks for your input.

 

[ondablade]

I looked at this issue too H, having had a Robland combo machine for about ten years and recently switched to Hammer separates which may be a bit more industrial than you have in mind.

The big picture on combination machines seems to be that they save quite a lot of space, and some cost - but at the expense of quite significant operating complications. (i.e. loss of set-up and operating flexibility)

The failsafe position to my mind is probably separates, in that if you can eat the extra cost and space requirement they don't normally (short of having some very specialised requirement) create any disadvantage.

It's in the end an example of the old engineering design principle - the more you integrate additional functions into a single part, machine or assembly the more likely you will introduce operating or technical constraints of one sort or another which make it increasingly likely that any change in operating or technical requirements from those originally envisaged will lead to problems.

I found with the Robland that the small table and short fence made handling large sheets very awkward. Yet you can take quite a basic and inexpensive contractor's saw, and by adding infeed and outfeed tables end up with something quite capable for this sort of work. The Robland due to the above and its complicated shape wasn't easily fitted with table extensions.

Also as said above that you need to think through the sequence of operations as you otherwise will often be left trying to get back exactly to an original setting - having had to take it down to enable doing something else.

One combination that seems to minimise these issues while giving back lots of extra space is a spindle moulder and saw combo like Hammer do - and you get the benefit of being able to use the sliding table with the spindle.

Even though woodworking equipment is to a degree generic it's in the end a workshop design task. Starting with the type of work and materials you have in mind working with and the type of operations (some may use hand tools) you can figure out the processing operations you will need - plus associated dimensions, capacities, rates of work, finishes, weights etc. This points to what machines might suit. Next comes machine positions/layout - allowing for storage, material handling, movement of part finished work, assembly, finishing and so on. Which determines the type and size of space needed. Don't forget power, heating, lighting, dust system, humidity control etc also as needed.

Constraints like budget, available space, existing equipment, uncertainties about the type of work and so on then feed in - and it comes down to paying your money and placing your bets - with luck your predictions work out.

Even the above presumes stuff about the sort of work you may have in mind. There's also though other possibilities like the Festool rail saw and table system which might make sense if you were thinking of smaller work, or working with bought in planed all over wood strip or something like that.

If like me you were a fairly casual woodworker or are planning a shift to doing something you haven't got a lot of experience of then it can need a lot of research, thought and analysis (time) - and unless you manage to pretty effectively imagine your way into the work you plan there will still be a risk that you will get stuff wrong.

Which is probably why it's often said it's better to try to make the core decisions (like you are e.g. combo vs. separates), and to then let it evolve over time with working experience. Talking and visiting people doing something similar and building from that must be worthwhile too - as long as it really is similar.

 

[Shane]

The only advantage of a combi is space saving. I started my business just over two years ago and also considered this problem, the disadvantages of a combi for me were just too great, ie - the afore mentioned changover problems and limited operation capacities. The seperates that I went for were axminster trade rated, not industrial, but still does the job perfectly well and actually worked out cheaper than a combi, now if I ever want to upgrade I only have to change one at a time.

 

[heimlaga]

Thanks a lot.

Well.....Maybe I should elaborate a bit more with the facts. In my teens I went trough a one year program in machine woodworking. That is some 13 years ago but I think I still know the basics. I got my exam and started doing other things but all the time hand tool woodworking has been an active hobby of mine.
Over the years I have found that hand tools have their limitations just like machine tools do. The main limitation is that too much time is spent preparing the stock. What I am thinking about is adding a few more very basic machines to my hand tools.
That would first and foremost make my hobby more enjoyable. Secondly the machines might in the long run pay themselves off by making the occasional one off door jamb or window that one often need on renovation sites.

So.....When condensing your advice to one point I find that as a minimum the table saw should be separate from the planer/thicknesser.
That is the most important point right now as a better table saw likely will be my next big investment.

 

[Shane]

That is the most important point right now as a better table saw likely will be my next big investment.

That's the way I would go, although some people prefer to get a bandsaw first, I always find the table saw the most important

 

[beech1948]

That would first and foremost make my hobby more enjoyable. Secondly the machines might in the long run pay themselves off by making the occasional one off door jamb or window that one often need on renovation sites.
.

Heimlaga,

I have a combo and am very happy with it. Its a Felder CF741 with additional gadgets to measure the exact settings of saw/thicknesser etc. It works for me as I can return to previous settings quickly and with accuracy. I have found in 8 years that my Felder provides a level of quality seldom found elsewhere.

BUT, there is always a but. Combis do not save space. My Felder needs about a 5mx4m space to ;live in and to give enough safe space to work and pass timber through it.

The reasons for owning a combi are based on how it suits the work you do and of course its accuracy.

Much is made of the need to return to a prior setting being difficult. Why. Its just as difficult on a separate machine as on a combi. What really matters is that whatever measuring device you use needs to be easy to see and use.

Much of the comments above seem to be repeats of low quality rumours which when examined don't make sense.

The major problem with combis is that of the shear expense of buying ( and possibly maintaining them) and getting them set up properly. Separates will be cheaper. Set up will be easier.

regards
Alan

 

[Shane]

Combis do not save space. My Felder needs about a 5mx4m space to ;live in and to give enough safe space to work and pass timber through it.

Much is made of the need to return to a prior setting being difficult. Why. Its just as difficult on a separate machine as on a combi. What really matters is that whatever measuring device you use needs to be easy to see and use.

Much of the comments above seem to be repeats of low quality rumours which when examined don't make sense.

The major problem with combis is that of the shear expense of buying ( and possibly maintaining them) and getting them set up properly. Separates will be cheaper. Set up will be easier.

regards
Alan

Thanks for that, of course my comments are second hand rumours aren't they :roll:

My saw table and planer need more space and run off compared to what you have quoted, a good friend of mine has a combi that doesn't need anywhere near the same space that I use. He also stated that changing processes is a pita whereas a can leave each machine on one setting and swap between machines whenever I like.

 

[ondablade]

The major constraint with combining the planer thicknesser and saw in my (Robland) experience H was that it leaves the rip side of the table very cluttered for trying to cut larger panels - I seemed for example to spend a lot of time lifting rip and planer fences on and off again. Also that it made the situation very messy as regards any possibility of fitting extension tables. There was also an issue (which could have been a fabrication defect) with small table height differences between the planer and the saw tables.

On the other side there was a similar issue with the cross-cut fence which bolted to the (small) sliding table - the table didn't have enough travel to push/pull it forward/back out of the way except for very short cuts, and this forced removal of the fence. (necessitating set up to get it square when it was put back on) The removable mitre gauge was worse than useless as a result of a sloppy fit in the slot, and couldn't easily be replaced with what the US guys call a sled because there was only a very short length of mitre slot on the infeed side of the saw blade - meaning accurate alignment wasn't very likely.

On space. I went through it with paper cut outs over a layout drawing, and nearly bust a gut to find a way to fit in a separate spindle and planer thicknesser (with adequate infeed and outfeed clearance, and walkways) along with a panel saw - in a shop that swallowed the combi.

It's pretty self evident that a planer welded to a saw with a small table with a shaper buried in the middle takes up a lot less space than even the above three units would when separated by walkways. Add extension tables or whatever to the saw and it gets even more space consuming.

Maybe the best way to put it is that it all depends on the specifics of your needs (especially the size of workpieces you have in mind), the equipment capacities this necessitates, and your available space.

 

[Shane]

And H may not want to spend 11k (base price) on a felder for a hobby/bit of cash generation

From Felders website re combis... "With such a small space requirement" :lol:

 

[heimlaga]

Felders are sadly too expensive.

The combi machines in my prize range are usually old Jonsered or Sajo or maybe Stenberg. They all follow the concept of a big planer/thicknesser combination with a table saw built into the infeed table and a spindle moulder built into the outfeed table. Usually the planing capacity is 30-60 cm wide and the planer tables over 2 metere in lenght.
Excamples:
http://www.blocket.se/ostergotland/Snic ... m?ca=2&w=3
http://www.blocket.se/gavleborg/Snicker ... m?ca=2&w=3
http://www.blocket.se/blekinge/Kombimas ... m?ca=2&w=3