Scraper planes

[Paul Chapman]

In discussions about planes and tearout it is often said that scraper planes do not give as good a finish as you can get from a normal bench plane used with a higher effective pitch. That has not been my experience, so I'm interested as to why some people think that the finish from a scraper plane is not so good.

I use both the Veritas scraper plane and the Veritas #80-style scraper. They are both used with the blades honed at 45 degrees and a hook formed on the bevel. As you can see from these pictures of an oak table top which was cleaned up entirely with the scraper plane, it produces proper shavings just like you would get from a conventional plane

The finish was silky smooth and every bit as good as I would have achieved with a normal bench plane - the only difference being that I didn't have to worry at all about tearout.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[mtr1]

That has not been my experience, so I'm interested as to why some people think that the finish from a scraper plane is not so good.

Thats because you know how to correctly sharpen a scraper paul, most don't and get a slightly rough finish.
I don't use a file on my hand scraper but a fine stone, and get the same results.

 

[condeesteso]

Exactly right I think. They are fantastic tools when the grain goes difficult, but it's really all in the sharpening. Otherwise they are tearing devils , and get bad press because of it. You are fortunate to have the Veritas as the blade steel is excellent. Some of the older bargains are much harder to get a great edge on.

by the way Paul - just how much Veritas gear do you have...?? :wink:

 

[David C]

Entirely agree.

Excellent sharpening, turning hook to correct angle and use of a suitably hard and polished burnisher are all essential, as is setting the blade at the correct angle. This is a cutting tool. L-N used to have some wierd advice about using without hook. I have also read much other unhelpful advice. There are many things to go wrong if you are not organised!

David Charlesworth

 

[Paul Chapman]

This is a cutting tool. L-N used to have some wierd advice about using without hook.

Yes, I've never understood that either :? LN, like a lot of people, seem keen to promote the idea that turning a hook on a blade is difficult. I've never found it so. I pinched your idea of putting the blade on a piece of MDF with the edge flush so that the burnisher runs on and off the blade easily

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[custard]

I suspect an other issue is that people often use a scraper plane selectively on a torn out area, and end up making a shallow depression. So as the scraper plane is coming up out of the depression it's running "uphill" and likely to catch and start tearing out again, especially if the hook's set too aggressively. But by working all over the surface (much easier with an 80 or a scraper plane) you're reducing the surface uniformly like you would with a finishing plane.

 

[condeesteso]

Yes for the good old No80. Given they can be picked up for a very modest amount, when tuned well they are really excellent. And tuning an 80 is way easier and quicker than tuning a bailey.
btw David C has published very good guides on blade tuning - i think there may be some on Popular Woodworking.

 

[Saint Simon]

Paul, do you find the Veritas scraper plane is most effective with the thicker blade or with the thinner one that can be used bowed? Your picture of putting the hook on seems to be of the thicker blade.
Simon

 

[jimi43]

And don't forget the humble scraper itself...get a set of different thinknesses....create that hook on four surfaces...use a thumb leather and you're off and running. Scrapers are the most underrated and misused of all hand tools but correctly sharpened...they are fantastic!

Jim

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul, do you find the Veritas scraper plane is most effective with the thicker blade or with the thinner one that can be used bowed? Your picture of putting the hook on seems to be of the thicker blade.
Simon

Hi Simon,

I've bought the thicker blade but haven't used it sufficiently to form a view yet. The one in the picture is from the #80-style scraper.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

I've used Paul's Veritas scraper and it does what it says on the tin...nice piece of kit, especially when we tried it on the WfH. But equally, my LV BU smoother with a high pitched blade (EP around 60deg) and very close mouth did the same sort of job........so :duno: I've got the Veritas No80 as well which is a vastly improved version of the original Stanley and properly sharpened, will also do good stuff. I really ought to get hold of a bigger scraper plane (I like the LN one with the tilting handle...at the moment 8-[ :-" ) but then if I bought one I'd have far too many planes under the bench and would probably have to think about some sort of bespoke storage and then I'd the pointy finger of 'collector' would come my way...Hells teeth, I hate these sorts of threads :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

A thought on final hook-turning when sharpening any scraper blade. Over time I have reduced the pressure during the final turning of the hook - a lot. If you think of the contact area between the burnisher and the edge, it is tiny, so just say 200g of pressure down is a massive amount when focussed onto the contact area on the edge. I think that if pressed too hard, the edge begins to spread and deform, and if I bothered with a microscope I'd expect that edge to be 'torn'. So starting with a really polished edge (just like a chisel or plane blade) and turning the hook gently is my approach. You can easily add more hook if it isn't enough, but it is very easy to overdo it and break the edge up. Basically if it isn't producing thin ribbons, it's not right.

(also, a polished smooth burnisher is necessary - those ground ones are too rough. I think DC uses a cobalt rod...?)

 

[David C]

Paul,
I have taken the MDF idea one stage further.

We now use thick MDF with a 75 degree long edge.

The blade edge protrudes just a smidge as before.

The burnisher will now lose contact with the blade as soon as the angle exceeds 75 degrees.

This saves having to judge 75 degrees or squinting at an angle board behind.

David Charlesworth

Back bevels and scraper planes are two of the five (new) topics on my 6th dvd.

 

[Paul Chapman]

We now use thick MDF with a 75 degree long edge.

That's a neat idea I've seen one or two dodges recently to help ensure that the hook angle is repeatable - it certainly pays to see how other people do it.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

I've used Paul's Veritas scraper and it does what it says on the tin...nice piece of kit, especially when we tried it on the WfH. But equally, my LV BU smoother with a high pitched blade (EP around 60deg) and very close mouth did the same sort of job........so :duno:

Someone who's better at the maths/visualisation/fancy 'puter graphics might be needed here - what's actually the effective pitch of a scraper plane with a hook on the blade anyway? :-s

 

[Paul Chapman]

turning the hook gently is my approach ...............it is very easy to overdo it and break the edge up.

That's been my experience as well. You only need light pressure when turning the hook. If you make the hook too large, it will simply break off.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Paul Chapman]

Someone who's better at the maths/visualisation/fancy 'puter graphics might be needed here - what's actually the effective pitch of a scraper plane with a hook on the blade anyway? :-s

I've often wondered that, Alf. As I see it, the reason a scraper works so well is that the blade is tilted forwards so the shaving is immediately turned away as it is cut. I don't think the angle of the hook has much to do with the control of the tearout, other than it needs to be right to cut well - it's more the angle of the blade.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[David C]

Alf,

I tried to do that for a PW article, but it was quite difficult without knowing the nature of the concave curve on the "flat" side of the blade.

Thought EP could well have been in the 60 to 70 degree area though, and this certainly makes good sense.

I remember suggesting that the cutting action was like a steep EP blade with an infinitely close set, very steep chipbreaker, (i.e. flat side).

David

 

[Doug B]

I`ve found Ralph Brendler`s information on scrapers useful.

http://www.hocktools.com/Brendler/scraper.htm



Cheers.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I`ve found Ralph Brendler`s information on scrapers useful.

http://www.hocktools.com/Brendler/scraper.htm

One thing that's always rather baffled me about these standard texts is the recommendation to use a file to remove the old burr and square up the scraper blade. That's always struck me as rather drastic and frankly unnecessary.

As I see it the burr on a scraper blade is not much different from the burr you get when you hone a blade. So what I do is simply wipe the blade on a fine stone to get rid of the burr and then hone the blade at 45 degrees and form a new burr. I've never used a file on the blade and never found it necessary.

Cheers :wink:

Paul