New Japanese Chisel....Bargain?

[Modernist]

The only problem with good Japanese chisels is that they are addictive. Once you have one and have experienced the edge achievable you will want more and be dissatisfied with European chisels.

Jim

They will take a decent edge, true. By far the biggest beef I have with them though is that they're just so bloody uncomfortable to use for hand work as they've got a damn great lump of iron at the end of the handle. Great for belting with a Jap hammer, but useless for anything else (not counting of course the ones with elongated handles)
If you like having a big red weal in the palm of your hand after a bit of horizontal paring or having the hoop dig into your thumb after some vertical paring...then more power to your elbow :lol:


Keep all your Jap chisels...I'll stick to my nice comfy LN's any day :wink: (and I have owned two sets of the things and flogged them) - Rob

Seconded, not to mention brittle edges, but I have settled on AI.

 

[jimi43]

Thanks for the feedback guys...I will let you know my opinion after a few jobs.

As you can see, this one is sans the hoop so that is not an issue and is long handled for pressure cutting with the body (so I am told).

I guess that we all have to take journeys and decide if we like where we get to when we get there. I keep an open mind all the way because the woody things that I do usually differ from most traditional joinery work...furniture and the like.

So far..I am still cuddling it!

Jim (yetloh) - I think I mentioned concave backs...the scalloping...and I was previously thinking that most had scallops all the way to the tip with just a flat hardened section.

I'm not sure if the previous owner took so much metal off...to totally wipe out most of this...I guess he could have done but the remaining back is quite thick and very very flat. So flat distant reflections are perfect.

I am going to try a few dovetail trims with it....see how it performs.

Cheers all

Jim

 

[matthewwh]

Hi Jim,

Nice chisel, especially for that price!

Iyoroi were the first manufacturer to introduce mass production techniques (die forging) much to the chagrin of the Japanese toolmaking establishment. Yours looks like it is a 'real deal' hand forged example which are still made the old fashioned way by either the master or one of his senior smiths.

As it turns out the combination of die forging and hand forging was the way to go and many of the successful manufacturers including Mr Fujikawa who supplies us, now offer both.

The back has been over flattened but it won't make a lick of difference to the performance of the tool, it's all too easy to end up in this situation if you don't know how to treat a bump in the back of a tool.

I have a lovely broad early 1970's Iyoroi paring chisel with an osage orange handle, which I treasure, and a couple of narrower hand forged ones by Mr Fujikawa. They tend to come out for extra special 'this one's got to be absolutely bang on the money' type cuts. I don't know why but I find it easier to tune out all distracting thoughts and get right into the zone whilst using them.

Not to everyone's taste (could someone pass Jacob a bucket please - he looks a bit pale) and for the life of me I can't get into the same emotional place when chopping, planing...no problem, sawing...yep, paring...every time, but it seems chopping will always just be chopping.

Enjoy!

 

[yetloh]

The only problem with good Japanese chisels is that they are addictive. Once you have one and have experienced the edge achievable you will want more and be dissatisfied with European chisels.

Jim

They will take a decent edge, true. By far the biggest beef I have with them though is that they're just so bloody uncomfortable to use for hand work as they've got a damn great lump of iron at the end of the handle. Great for belting with a Jap hammer, but useless for anything else (not counting of course the ones with elongated handles)
If you like having a big red weal in the palm of your hand after a bit of horizontal paring or having the hoop dig into your thumb after some vertical paring...then more power to your elbow :lol:
Keep all your Jap chisels...I'll stick to my nice comfy LN's any day :wink: (and I have owned two sets of the things and flogged them) - Rob

Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a hammer; of course they are uncomfortable if used for lengthy periods of paring - that's what paring chisels are for, and they are just as good for that as the bench chisels are for what they were deigned for.

The only occasional problems I have had with brittleness have been with brand new chisels where the very thin area of metal at the extreme tip has been overhardened - a problem cured by regrinding. Perhaps they won't stand up tp quite the level of abuse that can be inflicted on LNs but in my view that extra fine edge is well worth a little extra care.

I certainly will keep my Japanese chisels and you are welcome to your LNs; it wouldn't do if we all liked the same things.

Jim

Jim

 

[jimi43]

Thanks Matt...actually you describe perfectly what I was feeling tuning and playing with this little baby today. I hadn't had much time with it since work took over but today I finished early and just sat reading some emails and running it over some bandsaw marks on my drying home-grown cherry.

It virtually polished them out...slid across effortlessly and it felt very um...thereputic...if that were possible.

I have a couple...very few...tools like this which just seem to FEEL right...

I think this would be a keeper.

Jim...it seems we have a certain amount of polarisation of views WRT Japanese chisels in general.

I wonder why this is? Perhaps it is, as I previously said, the application and the common use each of us puts to our hand tools.

Woodworking encompasses a very wide spectrum of specialities from the jobbing carpenter to the fine art of carving and I believe that some believe that accolades placed on certain tools by some will translate into their specific field of whittling. I think that maybe this is where disappointment occurs.

Sometimes though...the same job is accomplished using two or more very different types of tools....with satisfaction being gained from what performs best for the individual...

It would be a sad world if we all liked the same things though wouldn't it?

Thanks for the further feedback guys...I think I fall into the "I love these things" camp! Maybe I just got a good 'un!

Jim

 

[yetloh]

Jim,

Yes, I completely agree with you. It's like wooden planes and metal planes or even infills and non-infills. They are all capable of doing a great job if they are of the right quality but they suit different types of work and styles of working. And thank goodness for that, not least because it keeps a wide range of specialist makers and suppliers in business.

Jim

 

[David C]

It is unmistakably Iyoroi.

Both Craftsman's Choice and Axminster sold these chisels. They were relatively reasonably priced in the scheme of Japanese chisels, and I would be very surprised if it were hand forged.

Excellent chisels, I still use mine.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[promhandicam]

For those who don't intend hitting a japanese chisel with a japanese (steel) mallet and whose hands aren't up to using a chisel with a hoop just cut the hoop off and round the end over! OK, it might not be the 'done thing' but who cares - it is just a tool! Personally the hoops don't bother me but seemingly some people are averse to them.

Steve

 

[wizer]

I really like the hoops. Maybe I'm loopy ? :roll:

 

[katellwood]

Honestly, I haven't got a fetish

Joking aside they're excellent to use especially the longer temple makers chisels

 

[wizer]

very nice Chris. Must get around to sorting out my chisels with this type of handle. A kind of East meets West project

 

[jimi43]

Oh MY LORD Chris!!

I have seen the slope....I have the skis on and I forgot my sticks...

Oh MY!

Thankfully I am on the nursery slopes....not the Black Run like you....

Dear oh dear oh dear...they even LOOK mystical...

:shock: :shock:

Jim

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

A few more Jim, but nothing as impressive as Chris' ..

These are mainly Iyoroi ... bench chisels at the top, slicks (or parers) in the middle row, and Koyomaichi dovetail chisels at the bottom.



If you really want to see some amazing Japanese chisels, then go to So Yamashita's site ... http://www.japan-tool.com/

I've been waiting for two years now for a set of Kiyohisa slicks ..

These have thin blades for a delicate touch. Beautiful work by a master craftsman.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[woodbloke]

Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a hammer; of course they are uncomfortable if used for lengthy periods of paring - that's what paring chisels are for, and they are just as good for that as the bench chisels are for what they were deigned for.

The only occasional problems I have had with brittleness have been with brand new chisels where the very thin area of metal at the extreme tip has been overhardened - a problem cured by regrinding. Perhaps they won't stand up tp quite the level of abuse that can be inflicted on LNs but in my view that extra fine edge is well worth a little extra care.

I certainly will keep my Japanese chisels and you are welcome to your LNs; it wouldn't do if we all liked the same things.

Jim

Jim...my earlier post was done with 'tongue in cheek' in case you hadn't guessed. As I said, they are good and will take and hold decent edge, but the fact that you'd need to double up on the quantities (and thus cost) is also off putting. True, we all like and use different tools, but I reckon a decent Western style chisel (say an AIMKII) will do all that a Jap pair will do...and for half the cost :wink: - Rob

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

...I reckon a decent Western style chisel (say an AIMKII) will do all that a Jap pair will do...and for half the cost

Hi Rob

I reckon it is the other way around - a cheap Japanese chisel will do as well as a decent (expensive) Western chisel, that is, one that costs at least twice as much as the Japanese chisel.

Japanese chisels really have incredible performance-for-money.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[jimi43]

We appear to be pretty polarised still on this Western/Eastern issue...and good thing too!

Derek.....second row middle fourth in from both sides...looks like mine.

I think I might do a bit of a road test this afternoon...and I am at the moment trying to select an old but good make Sheffield one to be the other test chisel.

I guess this may not be entirely fair as both would be "used" to a certain extent but it will give me some feedback I can post here.

Jim

 

[yetloh]

Jim...my earlier post was done with 'tongue in cheek' in case you hadn't guessed. As I said, they are good and will take and hold decent edge, but the fact that you'd need to double up on the quantities (and thus cost) is also off putting. True, we all like and use different tools, but I reckon a decent Western style chisel (say an AIMKII) will do all that a Jap pair will do...and for half the cost :wink: - Rob

Rob,

You may be right but Iyoroi's are not that expensive, as Derek suggests. But I do agree that a lot of this comes down to personal taste and for me there is something very special about a perfectly sharpened japanese chisel - and I do admit to being a mite obsessive about sharpening, but we had better not go down that road!

Jim

 

[jimi43]

Ok so I finally used the little Japanese paring chisel in anger today...rather than whittling strange Aztec objects! :wink:

I had to finish off the dados for a shelf in a tool cabinet I am making for my planes today:

The dados were cut on the table saw but always leave grooves in the channel that need tidying up so I decided to see how this little baby would perform....

I have to say that I am suitably impressed. The edge I was able to get was astoundingly sharp...in fact the first time I would be scared to touch an edge too hard...it pricked just like a razor!

And as you can see it parred like a hot knife through the proverbial...it just skimmed along creating little angel whisper fine shavings.

The result was a very smooth flat face to the bottom of the dado and I can see that I will enjoy using this for dovetails on my next project.

Highly recommended.

Jim

 

[dannykaye]

have a look at

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12758&s=JapanWoodworker

just the top of the slope

btw they are meant to have the hollows in the back!

 

[jimi43]

btw they are meant to have the hollows in the back!

As I was saying at the start of the thread and others have confirmed...the previous owner flattened the back...probably to get out a bend...left a bit of the two hollows but I have it on good authority that this does not matter.

It certainly works better than any of my Sheffield ones...for what I do anyway. I am not sure I want to try the "bash on the top" ones....maybe later.

Jim