Jack Planes?

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Mangokid

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I'm looking into getting my first bench plane, a good all rounder. I've been searching here and elsewhere as to what hand plane to get first. Opinions differ of course, somewhere between a No4 - 5 1/2 is generally recommended and I think I have settled on a Jack Plane. I have decided to buy new, but unfortunately I don't have the option to go and try any out before purchase.

However, can anyone comment on whether it should be a 5, 5 1/2? Or even a LAJ, which a few recommend, but I hadn't really considered? And the reasons why you might select one over the other, as I am a little confused on why you might go for one over the other.

I understand that the 5 1/2 being wider will be harder to push, so is physical stature/build a major factor to consider in the choice? Otherwise is it just down to a personal preference?

I will add that I have a block plane and a few longer wooden planes which I hope to use in the future, but don't have the experience/confidence yet to restore the wooden planes.

Thanks.
 
Your question(s) is hard to answer. Different planes suit different people, so what works for me may not work for you.

Here's my tuppence worth anyway: A jack plane does roughing work. I'd be reluctant to spend big money on a new roughing plane. So a second hand plane was my choice for a jack plane. My beaten up, repaired, 1960s Record 05 does all I ask of it.

I do own an LAJ (Veritas). I bought that when I returned to hobby woodworking ~9 years ago. It's a great piece of kit - restored my confidence in hand-planing (which I'd never really mastered when I bought a POS Stanley No.4 back in 1973). It's versatile - can do almost anything with changes of iron set-up. However it's no longer a plane I reach for, for day-to-day planing, as I like the Bailey type depth adjuster found on Stanley, Record and numerous other brands.

So, if you've made up your mind that you want a new plane I suggest you go with the LAJ (and a couple of irons) but don't wait too long before investing in a beaten up, OLD, Record/Stanley No.5. But don't spend big money on a jack plane for bulk removal/prepping rough surfaces, as you'll cry when you hit a hidden nail/stone and put a scratch all the way down that £300 sole.

HTH.

Cheers, Vann.
 
My experience with an LV LAJ used as a jack plane is that on anything other than very benign timber you will get tear out, yes you can put 40 degree plus bevels on it but then it becomes a smoothing plane and not a jack plane. Unable to tell much difference between a LA BU plane and a good BD plane on end grain either. I prefer Bailey style planes in 5 1/2 and 4 1/2 but that is a personal thing and I could probably do without a 4 1/2, no reason you can't use a 5 1/2 as a smoothing plane on just about anything except very small pieces of work. The #7 will come out when I get around to building a carving bench.
 
CStanford":t8u6xwfz said:
Jack, jointer, smoother.... No. 5, No. 7, and No. 4

FWIW

Hello,

The essential triumvirate. With a block plane in the mix, I think 99% of all planing tasks are done with these, from rough timber to fine finish, dimensioning to jointing to polish. A low angle jack is specialist when you have the experienced and feel the need. You might never feel the need, they aren't part of the essential kit. You will get the three above at some point, preferably as soon as funds allow.

Mike.
 
Hard to argue against a 5 or a 5 1/2 as an all-rounder. I'm a fan of 4s but no denying that something around the length of a 5 is just that bit more versatile in the grand scheme of things.

Mangokid":2awvokqu said:
However, can anyone comment on whether it should be a 5, 5 1/2? Or even a LAJ, which a few recommend, but I hadn't really considered? And the reasons why you might select one over the other, as I am a little confused on why you might go for one over the other.
FWIW I would keep a low-angle jack firmly in the might-try-that-someday category. Standard double-iron bench planes are in general a much better proposition for the average user. Especially if you're after the greatest bang for your buck since there are no cheap LAJs that I'm aware of.

Buying new I think it's hard to beat a Faithfull in our part of the world. But it must be said that a better plane can easily be had from the secondhand market for less money, see this recent thread for a bit more.

Mangokid":2awvokqu said:
I will add that I have ...a few longer wooden planes which I hope to use in the future, but don't have the experience/confidence yet to restore the wooden planes.
If one of them is a jack you might need to do nothing more to it than a sharpen if you'd use it in traditional mode, i.e. for roughing duties with a cambered iron.
 
What kind of stuff do you plan to use this plane for ?
I would go for a 5 or 51/2 depending on how wide of stock you plan on planing.

An old, which most are... (pre 1970) Stanley or Record with a thick casting, especially on the sole, as you might need to lap it, depending if you want to take the thinnest shavings possible ...a bit of a waste of time to take five passes instead of one so I would not be super fussed at this point.

In my opinion a BU plane is best for end grain planing to a line and shooting board tasks.
A Bevel down plane does this job very well too, so I would not be in any rush to buy an expensive BU plane.
In my opinion the Bailey plane is a lot more versatile as the cap iron can be set very very, very close to control tearout (see David W on youtube)
If I were you, it would be a trusty old plane and have plenty of money left over to buy a cheap honing guide for around a fiver or so.
I then would buy an Ultex diamond whetstone 1000g for fettling the cap iron and back of the cutting iron.
Its nice to have a stone that's dead flat you can rely on, and won't break if you drop it, I'm guessing you probably don't have a sharpening setup regime/ designated space.
If you have oil stones and adamant on using them only, you would want a dead flat surface plate to fettle the cap iron and back of the cutting iron so they mate up and no shavings get trapped between.
You could look in a tile shop or stove shop skip or ask for off cuts of damaged granite or marble.
These more than likely, are made to very fine tolerances
A thick float glass shelf would be very flat also, not plate glass or toughened glass.... float glass has a green tinge to it.
That honing guide will get your irons sharp in those woodies too, and you will be able to have different cambers for different tasks which will be useful .
Look for a composite fire door in a skip for a floating bench top that will stay flat and wont warp.
You won't have a quarter of the bother learning to plane and will learn much much quicker.
Good luck
Tom
 
Mangokid":2b1qgnv6 said:
...I have decided to buy new...
This is a decision I think you may regret, though I understand where you're coming from. I nearly went down that route myself (actually ordered a new Record 05 from the local hardware shop - but cancelled the order before it arrived).

As I said in my earlier post, there's no point in a new jack plane - because a jack plane isn't a precision plane. IMHO save your pennies for a good smoother (or jointer). There's no advantage in buying a Faithful over a better & cheaper secondhand Record/Stanley No.5 - except a bit of bling - and you'll soon move on from any need for bling (which is fleeting anyway as rust, dings and wear take their toll).

CStanford & woodbrains":2b1qgnv6 said:
...Jack, jointer, smoother.... No. 5, No. 7, and No. 4.

The essential triumvirate. With a block plane in the mix, I think 99% of all planing tasks are done with these...
Start with a cheap No.5. Get a No.4 and try it for size (I prefer a No.3 for fine smoothing; David C uses a No.5 1/2 as his "uber-smoother"). These planes can be moved on when you've worked out what works best for you, and then you can buy a beautiful new plane with all the bling you want - and not regret it later.

My new (2010) Clifton No.3 smoother, and my new (2009) Veritas/LV LAJ only come out for fine work. My beaten up Record 04ss, 05 and Marples M7 do the donkey work. The 05 and M7 have braze repairs. The 04ss has part of the side missing. All three work well.

Cheers, Vann.
 
Mangokid":1px7je0g said:
I'm looking into getting my first bench plane, a good all rounder. ...
However, can anyone comment on whether it should be a 5, 5 1/2? Or even a LAJ, which a few recommend, but I hadn't really considered? And the reasons why you might select one over the other, as I am a little confused on why you might go for one over the other..

Personally, I would get a vintage Stanley or Record #5, ensure that the sole is flat (you may need to lap it on sandpaper - plenty of info around), along with 2 blades. One blade will be straight and the second with a moderate camber. Use the cambered blade for roughing out, and the straight blade (knock off the corners) for jointing and smoothing. This combination, along with a low angle block plane (for chamfers and end grain) will see you through 90% of bench plane use.

I do not like the #5 1/2 as it is so wide. It is also too heavy to use when roughing out, and too wide when jointing thinner boards.

The LA Jack is a great plane and, with a few blades, has great versatility. However, it is best when taking finer shavings, rather than the deep ones when roughing out. It can do so, and do so pretty well, however the camber on a blade used for this is more difficult to maintain, especially if you are starting out in the world of sharpening blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Excellent advice already. Homing in on your preference not to buy secondhand - there's a third option, between the eBay chancers and very expensive new. Buy from a named old tools dealer. These people know what good old tools look like and have reputations to protect, so don't sell duds. Or if you think they have, will swap or refund.
I don't think there's anyone with retail premises in Belfast but work your way through the online dealers and you'll be ok. Or phone one and talk it over.
There's a useful list on the TATHS site here

http://taths.org.uk/tools-trades/notes- ... ealers-etc
 
Let's make one thing clear for once and for all: There is no general purpose handplane!

Sure, when you have a shop full of accurate woodworking machines, then you don't need more then a #4 or a block plane. But in that case the machines take over the work of the other planes.

For people like me with just a crappy planer/thicknesser combo without any precision whatsoever and an equally crappy construction site tablesaw, you want something more then one 'general purpose plane'.

A jackplane for rough work, take out the twist from a rough sawn board, or bringing a board to thickness when you are to lazy to drag out the thicknesser. This needs to be a plane with a very strong camber to the edge of the blade. A somewhat longish plane is nice to avoid digging holes in your board, but not too long because all that length makes the plane unnessesarily heavy.

To make stuff really flat and straight, you want a long plane. As long as the work dictates. Large stuff is easier with one of these huge wooden jointers for example, but when you only make small boxes, then a #4 would be long enough.

And a smoothing plane. It should be short. Because when the boards have arrived at the finishing stage and you want to finally give them their final smoothing, chances are that they aren't truelly very flat anymore. Wood moves you know. So a short plane, well tuned up for this work.

So like Mike allready said: a #4, a #5 and a #7. That's a good choice for furniture size work.

A general purpose plane is in fact 3 planes.
 
As a novice who just went through the same decision, and ended up with a restored no 4 and a new 5 1/5, here's what I've found. The 4's light and easy and follows the shape of the wood better, I suppose that's obvious. But I prefer using the 5 1/2 - I like the feeling of stability, momentum, that is has a longer toe (is that the word? the part of the base in front of the blade) so it's way easier to align with the surface of the wood before making a stroke. Obviously it's better for levelling the surface of the wood, but I also really like it for finer planing - when I planed the 1 cm top edges of a box to get them level, I used the 5 1/2 because it felt better, less likely to give in to any unevenness in the wood.

All of that said, it could easily be that I need to work harder on learning to use the no 4.
 
Mangokid":3jtdrzi4 said:
However, can anyone comment on whether it should be a 5, 5 1/2? Or even a LAJ, which a few recommend, but I hadn't really considered? And the reasons why you might select one over the other, as I am a little confused on why you might go for one over the other.

I understand that the 5 1/2 being wider will be harder to push, so is physical stature/build a major factor to consider in the choice? Otherwise is it just down to a personal preference?

Don't get a low angle plane unless you've got a power grinder, in fact don't get any thick bladed plane unless you've got a power grinder. Life's too short for hand grinding a 3mm thick iron.

5 or 5 1/2? Personally I'd get a 5 1/2, but it really isn't all that big a deal so don't fret too much over the decision.

If you've only got the one plane (and as a beginner you absolutely can make everything that you're likely to make in the first couple of years with just a jack plane) then think about getting one or two spare irons at the same time. That can bring a lot of efficiencies and flexibility, from gang sharpening to giving you the option of different cambers.

Good luck!
 
I think buying your first plane brand new is the very best decision. If your not sure what a plane should feel like buying secondhand and then trying to fettle to make it work as it should is a long road of frustration. I would not get a bevel up plane, their performance is governed by the angle you sharpen the blade at and as a consequence you need to be able to do it consistently every time. A bevel down blade is unaffected by the sharpening angle.

The choice of plane does in my opinion depend on your stature and physical strength. My father is 5'10" and preferred to use a 5 1/2" and a 4". I'm 6'3" and prefer a no6 and a no4. I'm lucky to have almost every plane and these are the most used.

I would recommend either a Clifton (good British make), Lie Nielsen (American) or Veritas (Canadian)

I have large hands and although I have a mixture of all of them prefer the Veritas planes for two reasons. The Norris style adjuster is more precise IMO with less back lash, and the grub screws that hold the blade near the mouth afford extra resistance to knots knocking the blade out of kilter. The Noris style allows more room for my hands which are cramped in the other two makes of plane that use a Stanley type adjuster. My father uses any of my planes without issue, but has smaller hands.

I think I would get a Ryan air ticket and bob over to Liverpool and call into Axminster tools to try them out. I think a £39 ticket would be a good investment for what will be a serious purchase price.
 
Couple of interesting tangential points we should start threads on at some point:
how often you need to grind an iron;
hitting a knot knocking a Bailey-pattern iron assembly out of setting.
 
deema":22v2wlda said:
I think buying your first plane brand new is the very best decision.

I understand where you're coming from, and in principle I agree. The problem is that the plane many beginners want isn't, as far as I know, actually produced by any manufacturer!

Many beginners are impatient and want a plane that works straight from the box. They also want a plane that's fairly straightforward to keep sharp and serviceable with hand power alone.

In truth you can meet one of these criteria with a new plane, but not both. Probably the closest to meeting both targets is Andy's suggestion, a second hand Record or Stanley Bailey type plane from a reputable used tool dealer who has checked it over and will accept returns.

The problems with current new planes are these,

-The premium planes from the like of Veritas or Lie Nielsen can be used straight from the box and will give perfectly acceptable results with no fettling. But they have massive 3mm plus thick irons. I generally regrind an iron after about five or six honings, and re-hone after about ten minutes solid planing in hardwoods. In other words I'm normally regrinding after about an hour of solid hand plane work. Regrinding one of those super thick premium irons by hand however is the labour of Hercules. If you've got soft office workers hands, or you're past the first flush of youth, you might do it once; but I very much doubt you'd go back for a second attempt! Therefore maintaining a thick iron plane really requires a power grinder. If you go for a traditional dry wheel grinder then you'll almost certainly want to buy a replacement wheel, you'll probably also want a replacement tool rest, you'll need bench space for it, and of course you'll need to learn how to use it without bluing your blades. So, all in all, neither cheap nor simple enough for the instant gratification most beginners crave. Which is why so many beginners get wet wheel grinders like the Tormek. Okay, not quite so demanding of skill or quite so gruelling on your fingers, but the truth is they're very very slow, unbelievably slow in fact, so it won't be all that much quicker than hand grinding. The third option is a belt grinder or linisher, but really good models like the Sorby Pro Edge cost more than a premium plane!

-Modern Bailey style planes from the like of Record or Stanley are very unlikely to give acceptable results without at least some fettling. It's not particularly hard to do, but it is necessary. However the internet isn't really the beginner's friend when it comes to getting the fettling advice they need. Yes, there is some excellent advice out there. But as a beginner how do you separate the genuinely excellent advice from all the nonsense spouted by over excitable retired gentlemen with little practical experience but passionately held hobby horse beliefs and prejudices? To the beginner they unfortunately all sound plausible enough, but the "short on experience, long on opinion" crowd will spin him around with their conflicting recommendations! However, if the beginner can overcome these hurdles, then the massive advantage of Bailey style planes is that their 1.5mm thick irons are fairly straightforward to keep sharp. Regrinding by hand takes about ten minutes brisk exercise on some coarse abrasive paper, and they're thin enough that some users don't even bother with separate grinding and honing angles. Let me be clear on this for the OP's sake, hand grinding Bailey irons isn't a walk in the park, but it is at least reasonably viable, where as hand grinding a Lie Nielsen or Veritas iron isn't viable. It's possible, but it isn't viable.
 
woodbrains":zhvx1lr8 said:
CStanford":zhvx1lr8 said:
Jack, jointer, smoother.... No. 5, No. 7, and No. 4

FWIW

Hello,

The essential triumvirate. With a block plane in the mix, I think 99% of all planing tasks are done with these, from rough timber to fine finish, dimensioning to jointing to polish. A low angle jack is specialist when you have the experienced and feel the need. You might never feel the need, they aren't part of the essential kit. You will get the three above at some point, preferably as soon as funds allow.

Mike.

And I did mean to put in my post "all bevel down." And "typically used in this order." Cheers.
 
-The premium planes from the like of Veritas or Lie Nielsen can be used straight from the box and will give perfectly acceptable results with no fettling. But they have massive 3mm plus thick irons. I generally regrind an iron after about five or six honings, and re-hone after about ten minutes solid planing in hardwoods. In other words I'm normally regrinding after about an hour of solid hand plane work. Regrinding one of those super thick premium irons by hand however is the labour of Hercules.

Hi Custard

You are thinking like a pro. Try thinking like an amateur :)

The method that Lie Nielsen push is right up the alley of newbies. One does not grind a blade at all - except for the initial grind, and they do it for the purchaser .... a nice 25 degree primary bevel.

Then it is off to the honing guide for a 30 degree secondary micro bevel. And you are done! It work with either BU or BD plane blades.

This can be repeated many times before the secondary bevel becomes too large and requires regrinding.

My own preferred method is a hollow grind, and then freehand on the hollow. I cannot see a newbie doing this. Straight grind (one could use a belt sander) or hollow grind (Tormek or dry grinder) and then honing guide. Easy peasy. Blade thickness is irrelevant.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 

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