India stone question.

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Corneel

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I just bought an India coars/fine combination stone. An IB-8 to be precise. I know this stone was used as a one and only stone by many people, probably some still do. I have a question though. I tried it with a couple of vintage plane irons. Easy to raise a wire edge on the "fine" side. No problem there, haven't used the coarse side yet. But how do you get rid of the wire edge? I went back and forth, doing the bevel, doing the face. I tried light pressure, I tried heavy pressure. But the burr kept flipping around every time and didn't seem to want to let go. So I got a strop, but the burr seemed to be a bit too rough for the strop. In the end I gave in and smoothed the burr off on an Arkansas translucent.

How do you do this with just the India stone? I know that some people do it all the time, so I guess it is possible.
 
Have you tried getting the last bit off with the palm of your hand, then back of your hand etc?
It's a habit I've got into ever since using a Norton. Now I use a finer one its probably not necessary, but habits are hard to break !

Coley
 
Less moisturiser ? :) I'd have thought it should snap if you go back and forth enough. Perhaps a very quick hone after that should get it sharp again.

Coley
 
I was doing cambered jackplane irons. Those are harder to get all the edge on the stone in one go, so maybe i did less itterations on each part of the edge then I thought I was doing. I'll try again with a chisel. Not now though, I must work tonight.
 
Kees - it's going to cut a harsh wire edge on a cambered iron like that, and it may be difficult to get it off. Also, if you don't agitate the top of the stone, over time it will cut more finely, but it's still going to be a brash edge compared to an arkansas stone. As you found, the super hard burr is just going to scratch a strop like a scraper without being influenced much.

With a wire edge that thick, all you can do is alternate back and forth with light edge-leading strokes until it's weak enough that it's easy to strop off.
 
I use that very stone - the coarse/fine combination IB8. However, since I grind when I want to repair a primary bevel, I never use the coarse side. I can't honestly say I've ever had a problem with wire edges not loosening, but that may be the steels from which my tools are made, rather than the stone. Normally, I find that once the wire edge is raised, turning the tool over and drawing it back once is enough; any burr still attached comes away when I wipe the oil off (piece of kitchen roll, usually). That does for chopping chisels and most plane irons. Sometimes, I'll then swipe it over a strop, sometimes I don't bother.

When I want a really fine edge, I don't back off on the India, but transfer to a polishing stone (Welsh slate in my case, but translucent Arkansas will be just as good or better), raise about another couple of degrees, then draw the edge backwards down the stone several times lifting off on the forward 'return' to burnish the very edge. Then turn the tool over and draw back, then over and draw the bevel back, then over again and draw the flat face back, repeating five of six times (much faster to do than write). I can't ever recall wire edge still being on the tool after that, and I can sometimes see bits of it floating in the oil on the stone after. Then wipe the oil off (kitchen towel) and back to work - no stropping.

One thing I have noticed is that when I sharpen the kitchen knives (all of them stainless steel of some grade or other) the burr is much more adhesive, needing several 'reversals' to loosen it, and sometimes a few swipes on a strop after cleaning the oil off. Maybe your plane iron is one with a little bit of alloying in it?
 
D_W":1yz1ezew said:
With a wire edge that thick, all you can do is alternate back and forth with light edge-leading strokes until it's weak enough that it's easy to strop off.


Edge leading, that's new for me. I did edge trailing in the last few swipes. I'll give it a try (If I ever get home today, seems to be going to be one of these 16 hour days).
 
Cheshirechappie":205rj3lb said:
I use that very stone - the coarse/fine combination IB8. However, since I grind when I want to repair a primary bevel, I never use the coarse side. I can't honestly say I've ever had a problem with wire edges not loosening, but that may be the steels from which my tools are made, rather than the stone. Normally, I find that once the wire edge is raised, turning the tool over and drawing it back once is enough; any burr still attached comes away when I wipe the oil off (piece of kitchen roll, usually). That does for chopping chisels and most plane irons. Sometimes, I'll then swipe it over a strop, sometimes I don't bother.

When I want a really fine edge, I don't back off on the India, but transfer to a polishing stone (Welsh slate in my case, but translucent Arkansas will be just as good or better), raise about another couple of degrees, then draw the edge backwards down the stone several times lifting off on the forward 'return' to burnish the very edge. Then turn the tool over and draw back, then over and draw the bevel back, then over again and draw the flat face back, repeating five of six times (much faster to do than write). I can't ever recall wire edge still being on the tool after that, and I can sometimes see bits of it floating in the oil on the stone after. Then wipe the oil off (kitchen towel) and back to work - no stropping.

One thing I have noticed is that when I sharpen the kitchen knives (all of them stainless steel of some grade or other) the burr is much more adhesive, needing several 'reversals' to loosen it, and sometimes a few swipes on a strop after cleaning the oil off. Maybe your plane iron is one with a little bit of alloying in it?

I don't have the same experience with my vintage tools. Even on an Arkanasas it can take several back and forths to get rid of the burr.
 
Corneel":30rfplv7 said:
Cheshirechappie":30rfplv7 said:
I use that very stone - the coarse/fine combination IB8. However, since I grind when I want to repair a primary bevel, I never use the coarse side. I can't honestly say I've ever had a problem with wire edges not loosening, but that may be the steels from which my tools are made, rather than the stone. Normally, I find that once the wire edge is raised, turning the tool over and drawing it back once is enough; any burr still attached comes away when I wipe the oil off (piece of kitchen roll, usually). That does for chopping chisels and most plane irons. Sometimes, I'll then swipe it over a strop, sometimes I don't bother.

When I want a really fine edge, I don't back off on the India, but transfer to a polishing stone (Welsh slate in my case, but translucent Arkansas will be just as good or better), raise about another couple of degrees, then draw the edge backwards down the stone several times lifting off on the forward 'return' to burnish the very edge. Then turn the tool over and draw back, then over and draw the bevel back, then over again and draw the flat face back, repeating five of six times (much faster to do than write). I can't ever recall wire edge still being on the tool after that, and I can sometimes see bits of it floating in the oil on the stone after. Then wipe the oil off (kitchen towel) and back to work - no stropping.

One thing I have noticed is that when I sharpen the kitchen knives (all of them stainless steel of some grade or other) the burr is much more adhesive, needing several 'reversals' to loosen it, and sometimes a few swipes on a strop after cleaning the oil off. Maybe your plane iron is one with a little bit of alloying in it?

I don't have the same experience with my vintage tools. Even on an Arkanasas it can take several back and forths to get rid of the burr.

Ah. Well, what I've written is what works for me. Obviously, you find something different, but what the difference is or why, I'm afraid I've no idea. Sorry.
 
Corneel":32cfzxfg said:
D_W":32cfzxfg said:
With a wire edge that thick, all you can do is alternate back and forth with light edge-leading strokes until it's weak enough that it's easy to strop off.


Edge leading, that's new for me. I did edge trailing in the last few swipes. I'll give it a try (If I ever get home today, seems to be going to be one of these 16 hour days).

Edge leading is the way a straight razor is sharpened for the same reason, to quell the formation of a wire edge.

Little different situation here, but similar issue. if the wire edge is gigantic, it might take quite a bit to get rid of it. Heavy pressure on edge leading strokes, and you'll still make a wire edge (no big deal).

Presumably the IB8 is fresh out of the box? The aggressiveness they have initially is something that never recreate (so if it's new, even if you scratch the surface of it, it will cut more finely down the road and be more user friendly).
 
What is the iron, is it nooitgedagt or freres? I have sharpened freres irons and they are a touch soft on the stones and roll up a huge wire edge. Same with an iron found on US planes - dwight and french.

But they work a treat in actual use, especially try and jack type work.
 
If the stone is pretty new it'll bite hard for a while, I think it's ally oxide on the fine? I kinda compare it to sandpaper in as much as it bites real hard when fresh. I'd slow it be trying to flatten a plane iron back. After the initial bite has gone and it has bedded in it should work a little easier.
 
Pressure on the stroke might be a key differentiator in the result. Two things can happen as you keep flipping the blade.

In one mechanism, the burr simply bends one way, then the other, eventually falling off through fatigue failure; the edge left is where the burr broke off, and will be rather rough. This would happen if the "stone" were a smooth slab of steel.

At the other extreme, the burr is mainly worn away by abrasive action; in it's purest form, working the back of the blade for the first time would entirely remove the burr.

In practice, you tend to get a mixture of the two effects, influenced by pressure and abrasive effectiveness.

BugBear
 
It's a long time ago, but I started with a coarse and fine India.

I remember stropping vigorously on the hand or the jeans, then dragging the edge through some end grain.

It still was not much good so stropping with jeweler's rouge followed.

The search for finer stones was on, first soft Arkansas and then 6,000 grit Japanese water stone, which was a welcome revelation.

Today I use two stones, 800 grit King followed by 10,000 King. No stropping required.

Probably less time sharpening than Paul Sellers spends stropping.......

David
 
My first 'sharpening' back in the early '80s was with the combination India, too. I bought the stone, an Emir wooden box for it, and an Eclipse jig. I couldn't get on with the jig; it kept falling off the end of the stone, so I ditched it very early (still got it somewhere). That is emphatically not to be taken as any sort of recommendation as to what others should do - it's merely my experience - and if a jig works for you, carry on, I say.

The other problem was that I didn't seal the wooden box, so it gradually became saturated with oil and then started contaminating anything it came into contact with, including the bench top. I wrapped it in a plastic bag, and looked for other ways of getting an edge.

Waterstones were fashionable at the time - quite a few positive mentions in the woodworking press - so I bought a 1000 grit and a 6000 grit King stone, and about the same time, a small 8" Tormek. Problems almost solved, except for the water and mess everywhere. The 6000grit did, however, show me what a really sharp edge was all about - like David C, it was a revelation. I can still remember the first paring with the first newly-sharpened edge off the 6000 stone. One of very few real 'wow' moments woodworking has given me.

Eventually, dealing with the water and flattening in a small upstairs back-bedroom 'workshop' became too much, and I tried ceramic stones. Expensive, but much less mess, bench-friendly, and very compact to store. A medium and an extra-fine did all I needed for some years. The medium is a bit slower-cutting than the fine India, but gives a slightly better edge. The extra-fine is as good, or better, than the 6000 grit King. I did find that they responded better when used with a little water (with a spot of washing-up liquid to kill the surface tension) on the surface to float off swarf, which tended to be ground in when the stones were used dry, needing a lot of scrubbing to remove later. For someone needing a compact and portable honing and polishing set-up for site work, these would be a good solution, I think - but keep a squeezy bottle of water with a dab of washing-up liquid in it handy.

A few years ago, perhaps out of curiosity, I went back to the India, pairing it with an Inigo Jones slate hone. (I've also resurrected my grandfather's old hand-crank grinder to supplement the Tormek.) This combination is excellent - bench-friendly (with the India in a box well finished with several coats of varnish), cuts quickly to give edges good enough for most chopping and roughing-out planning off the fine India, and just about the sharpest I've ever achieved off the slate (stropping actually dulled the edges!). Since no water is involved, I've found this to be the best compromise for me.

In summary - the combination India is fairly cheap, quick-cutting and bench-friendly, but needs a polishing stone and preferably a grinder of some sort to keep it company. The Waterstones cut fast and give excellent edges, but are messy, and really need a proper sharpening station set-up (preferably with a sink and running water) to really enjoy their benefits. Not a 'bench-friendly' solution. The ceramic stones are very compact, give excellent results (if a little slower than the India), are very bench and storage friendly, but cost a mint.

I've not tried diamond bench stones or Scary Sharp as a 'main' sharpening method, so can't offer any comment or comparison. If any of your tools are of the harder, more abrasion-resistant steels like A2 and D2, diamond stones may well be a better bet than oil stones, though the ceramics should cope with these steels adequately.

There just isn't a 'right' answer. However, there will be an answer that suits each individual and their particular set of circumstances. Don't let anybody tell you that one way is better than another - it may be for them, but it may not be for you.
 
I started with waterstones. I started woodworking in earnest some 10 years ago, before it was mostly motorbikes and home improvement jobs. 10 years ago waterstones were all the rage and I got an 800 and a 8000 Naniwa. The 8000 is a very nice stone, but the 800 hollows very quickly so i was all the time chasing its flatness with a diamond hone until there wasn't much left within a year or two. Exchanged it with a Sigma 1000 which was better but a bit slow in raising a wire edge, so I added a Bester 400 which has the same problem as the old Naniwa 800. i used an Eclipse jig back then, also dabbled with an LV jig for a while but quickly sold it, couldn't get along with it.

Then I started to use different kinds of tools, some moulding planes, gouges etc. I quickly learned that the waterstones are pretty vulnerable, especially the rather soft Naniwa stones. I got an oilstone from the ironmongers shop. A small one, no idea what brand it is. I had troubles with tha one too, it leaks oil all over the place and leaves a rough wire edge. So I indulged in some natural oil stones, a Washita, an Arkansas translucent and some slips. Also a nice piece of leather loaded with Autosol. Nice stones, much better behaved then the manmade oilstone. I still use that small oilstone when I need to take off more steel.

Then last week I found the India coars/fine combination stone for a very nice price. It's mostly curiosity, because I don't really need it at this point. For now it is still very coarse indeed, so I'll try to smooth it out a little. Have to make a box too, thanks about the tip to give it a good varnish coating. I hope I'll be fit enough tonight to actually do something, otherwise it will have to wait for the weekend.
 

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