help with joint

[Alex]

Hi all, been away a while just starting first project since a house move.
I need some advice and help on the simplist way to do this.

Building some reclaimed pine kitchen cupboards.
Ok the sides of the carcasses are frame and panel construction but the shelves/base board are solid pine,well 4" bits stuck together. So what joint would you use to join sides to baseboard, given the solid base will move more than frame and panel side.

any advice would be appreciated

Thanks Alex

 

[devonwoody]

Not a kitchen fitter myself but I recall the trade use metal/plastic brackets?
If you were building from scratch then other carpentry practices would be used.

 

[Alex]

I'm building these from scratch. I'm not adverse to traditional joint but was thinking along the lines of needing to disassemble to get them to site. So maybe cam and dowel? or somethink....

 

[mickthetree]

If the sides go all the way to the floor (ie your not putting feel on the baseboard) then I would think a rebate routed into the side panels to house the baseboard, which is then screwed from the sides would be suitable if this is solid wood as you suggest.

Then a series of holes drilled in the sides to allow a peg to be moved up and down would allow the user to vary the shelf hight.

Thats how I'd do it from what you have described anyway.

All the best

 

[woodbloke]

This will be a problem however you choose to tackle it, as the base will move relatively more than the vertical panel. I'd make the base using the same sort of construction as the uprights (or just a piece of ply for the panel) and then when you join them the orientation of the timber will be the same...use biscuits btw to join - Rob

 

[Alex]

Thanks for suggestions so far.
Yes the stiles of the sides will extend past the bottom rails to form feet of the unit. The sides of the unit are visible so i'm not keen on the idea of screws showing + wouldn't the solid base board pull the frame and panel apart :?

Mike the shelve idea was exactly how i'm going to do it, so that its not solid fix and can move.

Rob- sorry was posting same time as you . Yeah but i've already made up the base boards by glueing up 3"-4" wide bits. :? Plus wouldn't the frame and panel base board be a bit hard to use as a shelf/lack of better word?

 

[9fingers]

How about a sliding dovetail joint if you have enough 'meat' in the side panel frames? Just use some sort of fixing at the front (glue usually) and let the back slide to take up differential movement.

Bob

 

[moz]

Rob has it right. You can make the shelf in the same way as the sides. The panel needs to have a tongue carefully placed so that the top surface is flush with the frame. It can be tight in the length and glued in the centre, but leaving a small gap/reveal in the width to allow for expansion. Biscuits or dowels can then be used to attach, and there is plenty of long grain for a good glue joint. There are other ways of putting a bottom and shelves into a frame and panel cabinet. Have a look at some traditional dressers if you get the chance. However, This is all a bit much for a kitchen cabinet. What you will see in commercial jobs is that that cabinets are all made like boxes and only the ends which show have decorative frame and panel ends applied on top. You can screw them on from the inside and, since you have opted for solid timber for the boxes, you need to slot the rear clearance holes. The double edge as viewed from the front is either covered by a lay-on door or by the face-frame if the design is for an inset door.

John

 

[woodbloke]

Rob- sorry was posting same time as you . Yeah but i've already made up the base boards by glueing up 3"-4" wide bits. :? Plus wouldn't the frame and panel base board be a bit hard to use as a shelf/lack of better word?

Sorry, I didn't read the OP clearly enough If you've already jointed the timber for the base/shelf, this does present a bit of a dilemma as the horizontal component will move more than the vertical. You can only really join it in one spot (either at the front or back) so that the base can move relative to the join. A sliding d/t would be worth considering but I wonder if it's worth the effort for reclaimed pine kitchen cupboards?
Here's one way round the problem :idea: Biscuit the base into the upright panel at the front. On the baseboard at the rear, glue in a large round cross dowel, about 20mm from the edge. A 25mm long counterbored slot is then routed to half the depth on the outside of the stile to receive a long screw which then locates into the cross dowel. If the counterboring is deep sufficiently deep then the slot ought to be able to be plugged with a matching piece of pine so that it's almost invisible when glued in and flushed off. The screwhead underneath the plug will be able to move sideways along the slot as the baseboard then shrinks or expands - Rob

 

[xy mosian]

Hi,

Treat the baseboard as a table top. Use these, http://www.screwfix.com/prods/12920/Iro ... Pack-of-10, underneath as brackets, the slots allow for movement.
To tidy the job up a bit tongue the ends of the baseboard and make a matching groove in the sides. Do not make this a mallet tight fit. Then the weight on the bottom is transmitted to the sides via the groove, or t'other way around depending on where you fix the legs/feet The brackets will hold the two pieces together allowing relative movement.
Next problem is the back.

xy

 

[Blister]

Hi all, been away a while just starting first project since a house move.
I need some advice and help on the simplist way to do this.

Building some reclaimed pine kitchen cupboards.
Ok the sides of the carcasses are frame and panel construction but the shelves/base board are solid pine,well 4" bits stuck together. So what joint would you use to join sides to baseboard, given the solid base will move more than frame and panel side.

any advice would be appreciated

Thanks Alex

Roll it

Lick it

Smoke it :lol:


Opps , sorry not that sort of joint

 

[Alex]

9fingers-your 100% with sliding dovetail but i was looking for an easier solution. The frame for the sides will be made up with 70x25mm finish planks so lots of meat but with s/dovetail lots of chance to c*cK it up :evil:

Moz-the only problem with lay on/false sides is it adds heavily to width of an already tight space. There will be a total of 1x 3 draw 550mm, 1x magic corner 1m, 1x belfast sink 1600mm and 400mm draw unit with 2 more side panel to cover washer + dish washer. I did think along the lines of there are only really three exposed so the rest of the sides could be solid but how would that look when you open the cupboard :?

Rob and XY- thats the kind of thing i was thinking. Maybe solid fix to the front of the panel and some sort of expansion fix to the back of the base.

XY- i was thinking along the lines of stepping the back board in a bit so the frame and panle sides can be scribed to fit walls. I was going to just slot the frame and panel sides and slide back board in,maybe have it sit above shelf :?:

Thanks again chaps. Keep the ideas coming one is sure to suit.

 

[woodbloke]

Rob and XY- thats the kind of thing i was thinking. Maybe solid fix to the front of the panel and some sort of expansion fix to the back of the base.


Thanks again chaps. Keep the ideas coming one is sure to suit.

...which is what my idea will do. The screw head will have about 10mm of movement each side, assuming that you position it centrally in the slot - Rob

 

[xy mosian]

Just out of interest.

Would anyone like to put a figure to the 'worst case' movement in a solid pine shelf, which I assume would be in the order of 500mm or so in this case.

xy

 

[Alex]

xy- that's what i was starting to wonder, ....5mm over the width max. The made up board are 20mm thick and 550mm wide. The pine was reclaimed from roof joists on a 150year old building. So they're should be dry. :lol: Also meant to ask at the reclaim yard what type of pine, it's pretty heavy and dense and quite pink. Some knots.
I'm making a start this weekend. anyone want to see pics.

Alex

 

[xy mosian]

Alex, yes please to the pics.
I really have no idea about the amount of movement you might expect, I suppose it's the sort of thing most people try to avoid in the construction technique.

xy

 

[xy mosian]

Alex,
I have been squizzing around the web and have come up with the Shrinkulator, http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm.
Now of course this is american and does not include a few well known species, but it may give some sort of idea of potential movement involved.

xy