HELP! Kity 636 restoration

[polarblair]

Hello, Im in dire need of some help.

I picked up a Kity 636 Planer/ Thicknesser a couple of months ago. It was a bit rusty and stiff so I had the great idea of stripping it apart and restoring it. :roll:

I have stripped it all down, removed the rust and old paint. Resprayed it with new enamel paint, changed out all the bearings and I have put it all together again. The issue I am having is setting it up to work well.

I can get the out feed and in-feed table coplanar and I can get a nice flat surface when I use the planer. But when using the thicknesser the infeed roller grabs and pulls the wood but the out feed rollers do not touch the wood as its coming through so when the piece of wood is no longer in contact with in the infeed roller it stops and gets stuck.

What Im thinking is the knives are set to high, they are protruding about 5mm from the cutter block but they need to be set this high for when using the planer as I cant get the two tables any closer to the cutter block and still be coplanar.

I did think maybe the thicknessing table is off and its too low at the back but it looks like I would need to make a huge adjustment in order to compensate.

Can anyone who has the same model or similar type of P/T tell me how far there outfeed table sits above the cutter block and how far the knives are set?

Thanks!

 

[Ttrees]

Hello
Marius Hornberger has a Kity 636 , and has done extensive videos on the machine.
Have a look at his channel for more videos on the machine, as I can't remember in which one describes the same issues you have.
I think its at the end of this video [youtube]bAVXiRcrJxg[/youtube]

 

[heronviewer]

The outfeed table sits 1mm above the cutter block and the knives are level with the outfeed table. It works too !

 

[Steve Maskery]

I beg to differ.
The tables should not be exactly co-planar, but paraplanar. The outfeed table should be very slightly BELOW the TDC of the knives. A drag test should give you maybe 4 or 5mm of movement.

However, none of that explains why the outfeed roller does not engage. Are the springs that tension the rollers adjusted properly?

Have you had the thicknessing table off? If so, it could be that you are not locating the rise chain on the right teeth of the cogs.. If the outfeed end of that table droops a bit, that would explain it.

 

[polarblair]

Thanks for all the replies.

The outfeed table sits 1mm above the cutter block and the knives are level with the outfeed table. It works too !

Thanks this is what I thought, I cant seem to adjust the tables to a point where they in plane with one another and also 1mm above the cutter block.

I beg to differ.
The tables should not be exactly co-planar, but paraplanar. The outfeed table should be very slightly BELOW the TDC of the knives. A drag test should give you maybe 4 or 5mm of movement.

However, none of that explains why the outfeed roller does not engage. Are the springs that tension the rollers adjusted properly?

Have you had the thicknessing table off? If so, it could be that you are not locating the rise chain on the right teeth of the cogs.. If the outfeed end of that table droops a bit, that would explain it.

Yes thats what I man paraplanar. But when setting the tables level from what have seen/read you set them when the infeed table is marked at 0 depth of cut. So when initially setting the tables the would be coplanar then after adjusting the depth of cut the infeed would drop.

I have tensioned the springs for the rollers (though they may not be set correctly) the issue is the wood dosnt even touch the outfeed roller, there is about a couple of mm's gap between the fresh cut surface of the wood and the outfeed roller. From looking at the rollers they have a certain amount of travel vertically so I imagine the wood as it goes under the roller would push the roller up, the springs on the roller would fight against that giving enough pressure to keep the wood down. But none of this is happening.

I did take the table off and its probably not level. But I want to try and resolve the distance between the cutter blocks and the infeed/outfeed tables first before messing around adjusting the rising thickness table. Or should it be the other way around? Should I take the outfeed and infeed tables off and get the rising table set up first?

Thanks for all your help. I'll take some photos today which may help explain whats going on better.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I'm afraid I'm not getting this, PB.

You seem to be agreeing with both HV and me, who are giving you mutually exclusive advice!

The KNIVES need to be a tad higher (but not 1mm) above the outfeed table. If that means that the BLOCK (without the knives installed) is 1mm BELOW the table, then we are, in fact singing from the same hymsheet.

If you did remove the thicknessing table then I bet a pound to a penny that what I suggested above is the problem. It would be very easy to get that wrong and would result in the effect you describe.

 

[polarblair]

Sorry Im not being clear.

Currently the knives are a hair higher than the out-feed table. I took a steel rule and placed it on the out feed table, when the cutter head us moved by hand it drags the steel rule about 5mm. But to get them that height they have to stick out quite far because the cutter head is about 4-5mm below the out feed table.

What I think is happening is because the knives are set so far they are taking a deeper cut when thicknessing, so much that the cut surface is now lower than the outfeed rollers lowest position.

Im going to try adjusting the rising table like you have suggested this afternoon and see if I can have any luck.

Thanks for your help and advice.

 

[Myfordman]

I think your blades are projecting too far and the cutting edge should be on a mm or so from the chipbreaker.
I would firstly find the minimum blade protrusion in combination with the outfeed table position to pass the drag test at 3mm.
The with the infeed roller and out feed roller at their lowest position of spring loaded travel maker sure the blade is a couple of mm higher than the line between the underside of the rollers. This is so the when passing trough with a near zero cut both rollers will have spring pressure onto the job to drive it through.
Now adjust the table to be parallel across the width of the cutter block (not blade) and parallel to the line between the rollers. Fit the chain in the best compromise position that you can find. You can only go in steps of one tooth on the sprockets hence the compromise
Now run a test thicknessing pass and measure the error in the width of the workpiece. Fiddle with the knives to get this perfect on a light cut. This may mean the knives are not totally true to the block but you are getting perfect thicknessing which is the important bit.
Now with the knives fixed adjust the outfeed table until the drag test is met equally across the width of the knives.
Finally fit the infeed table to be paraplanar with the outfeed.
You might need to adjust the roller pressure to get adequate feeds with heavy cuts but bear in mind that excess infeed roller pressure here will increase the minimum cut that you have to take to remove infeed roller marks from the job especially on softwoods.

Good luck

 

[Steve Maskery]

If you are adjusting the thicknessing table, remember that it has to be level across the machine as well as along it, otherwise you will machine boards that are thinner along one edge than the other.

If you are having to have your knives set 5mm out of the block then check that:
a) your knives are 18mm wide and not 20mm
b) your outfeed table is set at a sensible height - if it is too high that would explain why you are having to set your knives so high.

 

[polarblair]

Thanks you Myfordman and Steve,

I have taken off the out feed and in feed tables and focused on the thicknessing table this afternoon. Much easier without the tables attached as I had to flip the machine on its side to get at the drive chain for thickness table.

I think I have managed to successfully set up the table after a few hours of work on it. I made sure the cutter block and roller assembly was fully seated in the chassis. Then using a square piece of hard wood i raised the table till it just could pass under the infeed roller on one side, I checked the other side and it was out by 0.8mm I did this again on the out feed roller side and made a note of the gap using a feeler gauage. I then flipped the machine and skipped the teeth on the cogs, In Marius Hombergs video about his Kity 636 he said roating the cog by one tooth equates to a +/- 0.25mm (very useful) So I was able to get the table within 0.25mm of the cutter head.

I then adjusted my blades so they were protruding by about 1-2mm not exactly sure of the final distance but its working as a thicknesser. The rollers engage now just at the point where no cut is taken, and I can lift the table up to start taking a cut.

I don't have calipers but using a combination square and feeler gauges I could see there was a difference of about 0.3mm from one side a full width board to the other side so I checked the blades and they didn't look perfectly straight so I tweaked them and now I am getting what I can measure to be a perfectly thicknessed board.

Im feeling positive about my progress and thanks for your help and suggestions. Tomorrow Im going to attach the top tables and see if I can get them registered off the new blade height. But this is what I have been struggling with is getting them low enough, not sure if theres something Im not seeing that is preventing them from being adjusted correctly.

BTW thicknessing without any guards on the machine is beyond terrifying, I kept my distance but looking forward to getting those blades covered up again.

 

[Steve Maskery]

That sounds like progress to me
S

 

[polarblair]

Im starting to feel like Im chasing my tail.

So I have put the in-feed and out-feed tables back on now that I got the thicknesser working. I just dont see how its possible to get these two table set up correctly. I have taken some photos of the current state of the machine.

As you can see the tables re no where near paraplaner...

Here is a close up of how far the blades are set, are these to low now or do they look about right?

From what I can work out on adjusting the tables are two adjustments.

First each of the tables sits on an aluminium frame that is bolted to the main body of the P/T with 6 large bolts. The holes in the main body are elongated so they can be moved around and then tightened once in the correct position.

Each table also can slide up and down along the metal locating rods. The in-feed table obviously does this to adjust the depth of cut by turning the handle at the very end of the table. The out-feed table also has a similar adjustment but on the hinge that allows the table to lift for when in thickness mode.

I can get the out-feed table to line up with the blade so that it drags a steel rule 3-5mm, but in order to get it like that the end of the table has to slope upwards towards the sky. And then when it comes to getting the in-feed table in line I cant get it anywhere near the cutter head...

Im going to keep working at it but if anyone has any great ideas, or knows something Im overlooking I would greatly appreciate any advice. Maybe there is something blocking the the tables from moving freely. I thought maybe the threaded rods for the raising table where maybe getting in the way but they look clear.

 

[Steve Maskery]

You must be getting very frustrated.
First, thos knive look about right. If anything, mine are set a bit lower, but you are not far out.
Can't help you on the dish problem, I've never had that, but certainly what you have there is not good enough.

I do remember, however, that I once had to take a file to the bed stops, to get them to sit without a twist. I think that was on my previous one though, rather than this one.

Why can't you get the outfeed table to drag properly without tilting the end up?

S

PS How did you get the thicknessing table to work?

 

[Myfordman]

It is years since I had one of these machines so all a bit rusty in memory.
I would say the blade projection looks about right but clearly skyward pointing tables are not. If the bolts will not allow the outfeed table to move down any further whilst staying horizontal then will the cutter block bolts allow it to move upwards at all to achieve the drag test results.
I recall you had it apart for painting initially so you will have lost the telltale marks of where bolts were. Any chance a build up of paint is limiting movement?
Sorry getting to the point of straw clutching now.
Maybe you need someone who has still got a machine in front of them to compare notes with.
Good luck

 

[polarblair]

You must be getting very frustrated.
First, thos knive look about right. If anything, mine are set a bit lower, but you are not far out.
Can't help you on the dish problem, I've never had that, but certainly what you have there is not good enough.

I do remember, however, that I once had to take a file to the bed stops, to get them to sit without a twist. I think that was on my previous one though, rather than this one.

Why can't you get the outfeed table to drag properly without tilting the end up?

S

PS How did you get the thicknessing table to work?

I was frustrated days ago! I’m almost at the point of throwing it of a cliff.

But at the same time I am not going to let this thing beat me!

Thanks for confirming the knife height is correct (or close enough) at least that is one variable I can eliminate.

What part is the bed stops? Is that on the main body of the machine (in my case the bit that is painted grey) I have been thinking if I need to do something like that but my reasoning is that it worked before.

Re: thickness table. Changing the blade height made the biggest difference. Before if I laid a flat piece of wood across the thicknessing table and then raised it. The wood would first touch the blade, before hitting either roller. Now the blade height is adjusted when doing the same test raising a piece of wood it first touches the out feed roller then just after it would touch the I feed roller and finally the blade would make contact. The way it was before with the high set blades the out feed roller would never touch the wood but now I have full contact throughout the cut. The tables were skewed slightly from side to side but I corrected this as well.

 

[polarblair]

It is years since I had one of these machines so all a bit rusty in memory.
I would say the blade projection looks about right but clearly skyward pointing tables are not. If the bolts will not allow the outfeed table to move down any further whilst staying horizontal then will the cutter block bolts allow it to move upwards at all to achieve the drag test results.
I recall you had it apart for painting initially so you will have lost the telltale marks of where bolts were. Any chance a build up of paint is limiting movement?
Sorry getting to the point of straw clutching now.
Maybe you need someone who has still got a machine in front of them to compare notes with.
Good luck

I think this could be the answer! I did take photos of the P/T whilst I was taking it apart and can see in the photos the cutter block assembly did sit higher than how it is sat now.

Ok I’m going to try loosening off the cutter assembly and raising it to see if I can get it lined up.

 

[polarblair]

SUCCESS!!

It was a right pain to do but I have got para-planer tables and a (almost fully functioning thicknesser... i'll explain)
I managed to lift the cutter block up a couple of mm's. Lifting it thought threw all the work of fine tuning the thicknesser that I had done yesterday because after lifting the cutter block it was impossible to lift it up the exact same amount on each side. But I took of the springs tensioning the rollers and loosened the cutter block assembly. Then I used a flat board and placed it on the thicknessing table and raised it till it came in contact with the rollers and cutter block. Then I raised it by about 2mm then tightened the bolts. Then I checked it for being parallel to the table. I took a test cut and it was out by 1mm from side to side so (the cutter block hadn't raised as equally as I had hoped)
Then loosened the bolts on one side whilst supporting it with a block of wood between the cutter and the table. Then lowered it by 1mm on just one side. I was getting close again, after adjusting the knives again to get it as close to taking a perfectly parallel cut I then checked the planer tables.

After 20 mins of gentle taps, checking with a straight edge and feeler gauges I got the tables para-palaner and passed the drag test! I couldn't believe it!

Here are some pictures of it fully assembled.

Thank you to everyone who helped with suggestions and advice! I now need to tweak the pressure on the feed rollers and sort out a proper dust collection solution.

The only thing that isn't quite right is after raising the cutter block the row of teeth that are at the in-feed side of the thicknesser are too low to allow the wood that is coming in to be cut. Currently I have taken it out as seen here...

There is a bit of room to allow for the height it be adjusted but now even when I push it up as high as I can the still sit below the rollers, just by a fraction but enough to not anything get cut when the are there.

My plan is to elongate the holes more with a round file then I can hopefully install them again, unless anyone else has any suggestions?

 

[Myfordman]

Excellent news!

 

[Steve Maskery]

Yes very good! Such a simple machine, such a lot that can be a challenge!