Hand Plane Setup

[Grawschbags]

Hi All,

Novice question here....

When I sharpen the blade on my No. 4 Plane, I set the Cap Iron back from the bevel by about 2-3 mm when putting it back together.

My question is, should the Cap Iron be set back this distance on all Planes?

When I use this measurement on my No. 5, I struggle to get the blade to retract back in to the Body. Just wondering if this distance setting is my issue?

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I set mine at about half a mil, but Graeme, I think it's time to get the popcorn out ... :lol:

 

[ED65]

Cap iron setting should be in relation to how you use the plane, so not just about plane size/type. You might have a 6 or 7 set approximately the same as a 4 is typically set, but on a 5 it would be set much further back (in the region of the 2-3mm you're currently using).

If your no. 4 is used normally as a smoothing plane and you have just the one set of irons you should typically have the cap iron set no further back than 1mm or so from the edge. When you encounter tearout on a difficult wood move it closer, to about 0.5mm and see how you get on. If you still find the wood is tearing out on you a bit try moving it to under 0.3mm from the edge. You'll notice a lot more resistance in planing with the cap iron set this close (which is why you wouldn't normally set the cap iron this way and just leave it there) but it should eliminate tearout nearly 100% in almost any timber.

 

[Bigbud78]

Take this with a pinch of salt as i'm very new to it as well xD

half a mil to 1mm generally for me, you should be able to back the blade out so it will not take a cut. This means you can take very small shavings by then pushing the blade back out 1/4 turn at a time. Also the position of the frog plays a part in this as well, if its to far forward its difficult to get a shaving and to far back you end up trying to hog off too much.

I found without anyone to teach me its was a case of spending a couple of hours with a piece of 2x4 playing with distances.

Worth watching paul sellers setup a plane

 

[AndyT]

As Phil hints, thousands of words have been written on this topic.

As with so many things in woodworking, the answer is "it depends."

If you want to take thickish shavings in mild wood, 2-3mm is fine. Judge this by the results you get and how easy it is to push the plane.

On the other hand, if you are taking thin, whispy shavings off difficult wood, having the cap iron quite a lot closer to the edge - almost touching it - could be what you need to control tear out and leave a fine surface. But setting the cap iron very close is only possible if the shavings are very thin. Also, it makes the plane harder to push.

 

[ED65]

When I use this measurement on my No. 5, I struggle to get the blade to retract back in to the Body. Just wondering if this distance setting is my issue?

You should be able set a cap iron further back than that and still retract the iron fully. I think when you can't it's always the cap iron's fault, indicating that one or both irons are replacements with a slightly different position for the slot that engages with the Y-lever. I have this problem with a Rapier iron set on a pre-war Stanley.

If you don't mind swapping parts between planes the cap iron from one of your other planes could have the slot in the proper position, allowing the setting of the cap iron distance you want (even 5mm back or a touch more) while still allowing you to fully retract the iron inside the body. The plane you swap the problem cap iron into shouldn't have an issue with it as it will be set much closer to the edge.

 

[ED65]

Also the position of the frog plays a part in this as well... to far back you end up trying to hog off too much.

Frog position doesn't affect shaving thickness on most bench planes (Bailey-pattern planes) because the iron moves horizontally. Fully back or after moving it well forward the shavings thickness remains the same.

Where moving the frog does change the shaving thickness directly is on a Bedrock-style plane where the frog is seated on an inclined plane, so moving it forward deepens the cut because the frog and the irons clamped to it move downwards slightly at the same time. But obviously you should dial the iron back a smidge to compensate.

This is assuming you want to move the frog at all, it can be left permanently in the default position.

 

[Fitzroy]

I have the same issue on a Bailey 4, when i set it up for rougher work and set the cap iron back further from the edge I can have issues getting the blade to fully retract. ED65's point is very interesting stating it could be a miss-match between cap iron and the plane, hadn't thought of that!

 

[Bigbud78]

Also the position of the frog plays a part in this as well... to far back you end up trying to hog off too much.

Frog position doesn't affect shaving thickness on most bench planes (Bailey-pattern planes) because the iron moves horizontally. Fully back or after moving it well forward the shavings thickness remains the same.

Where moving the frog does change the shaving thickness directly is on a Bedrock-style plane where the frog is seated on an inclined plane, so moving it forward deepens the cut because the frog and the irons clamped to it move downwards slightly at the same time. But obviously you should dial the iron back a smidge to compensate.

This is assuming you want to move the frog at all, it can be left permanently in the default position.

So you don't alter the mouth size at all ?

 

[Bigbud78]

Also the position of the frog plays a part in this as well... to far back you end up trying to hog off too much.

Frog position doesn't affect shaving thickness on most bench planes (Bailey-pattern planes) because the iron moves horizontally. Fully back or after moving it well forward the shavings thickness remains the same.

Where moving the frog does change the shaving thickness directly is on a Bedrock-style plane where the frog is seated on an inclined plane, so moving it forward deepens the cut because the frog and the irons clamped to it move downwards slightly at the same time. But obviously you should dial the iron back a smidge to compensate.

This is assuming you want to move the frog at all, it can be left permanently in the default position.

So you don't alter the mouth size at all ?

Interesting, I never realised this

https://paulsellers.com/2015/07/underst ... ur-throat/

 

[ED65]

So you don't alter the mouth size at all ?

No, the frog might as well be glued in place for all I care

 

[Corneel]

All of the above. But...

When you still get tearout when smoothing the board with your nr. 4, then set the capiron a lot closer to the edge then the 0.5 mm mentioned above. Even down to 0.1 or 0.2 mm is usefull from time to time. But don't meassure these kinds of tiny things, just look at the result of the planing action. Like I said: when still tearout, set it closer.

If you don't get tearout then it is not neccessary to set the capiron that close. It does increase the resistance when planing.

Oh, and I would leave the mouth size alone. The frog adjustment of the Bailey planes is a cruel joke. And a tight mouth isn't really that helpfull to avoid tearout. Better to pull the frog back so the blade gets full support all the way to the sole of the plane, that'll help to avoid any tendency of the plane to chatter.

 

[lurker]

OP,

As others have said, the problem with your 5 is most likely the cap iron.
I approached tears of frustration trying to work out what I was doing wrong on one plane, before I realised it was not me but the tool. :shock:
Fortunately I had a spare cap iron :lol:

If you know anyone who can braze, get them to put a gob of braze in the top of the hole the Y lever goes in
Then fettle

 

[profchris]

My mantra (having read all the recent threads with deep interest and some confusion) is to set the cap iron as close as I can to the thickness of shaving I want to take.

But I'm making ukuleles, so ease of pushing the plane is not a big consideration whereas tearout in a plate which is just getting down to 1.8mm thickness can ruin my day!

 

[deema]

The width of the mouth and the setting of the cap iron is done to reduce the likelihood of tear out. The cap iron rolls the shaving breaking the fibres stopping it pulling up the fibres ahead of the cut. For a given thickness of shaving and species of wood, small differences in the setting can reduce the tear out. For most stuff, a general setting of between 0.5 and 1mm is fairly common.

The width of the mouth is again to reduce tear out. The mouth is normally set to be slightly wider than the thickness of the shaving. The front edge of the mouth holds down the wood not yet cut by the iron stopping it lifting the shaving ahead of the blade tearing out the fibres rather than having a clean cut. Again small changes for highly figured or difficult wood can improve the nod result.

I have a selection of planes that are all setup for different specific tasks and each has a slightly different mouth opening / cap iron setting. Each plane for a specific task has a predetermined very small range off shaving thickness I will use it for defined by its function. If I had one or two places I would alter the mouth according to what I was doing. A smoother for example, no 4 or 41/2 has a very tight mouth, cap iron just behind the blade and is set for a few thousands of an inch shaving.

 

[sundaytrucker]

Richard Maguire has three videos on youtube all about setting the cap iron, maybe they will help you out.

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/cap-irons-tear-out-video/

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/preparing-the-cap-iron-chip-breaker-video/

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/setting-the-cap-iron-chip-breaker-video/

 

[Grawschbags]

Thanks all for taking the time to respond. Should have realised folks passion for the subject!

I have watched a few videos on the subject, mainly by Paul Sellers, and the distance that stuck in my head was the 2-3 mm....

I'm still far too much of a novice to be messing with frogs and trying different distances depending on the shaving I want. I'm just happy to be planing wood...

Interesting what was said about the Cap Iron being a replacement. I have a few that I can chop and change with to see what results I get.

Thanks again, and I'll have a look in to the links above.

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[lurker]

We did well
Got to page 2 and BB and Jacob have not turned up with their handbags yet :lol:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

(little thumb twiddling smilie) ... or the American contingent ...

 

[David C]

The retraction problem is caused by the cap iron.

Front edge to slot measurement does not suit the plane.

When fine shaving is set, the yoke peg should be close to vertical to frog surface.

There was variation in C/B production, so find another or adjust slot as Lurker suggests.

David Charlesworth