John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
Because the wind and sun don't always coincide with demand.
Electric vehicles
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Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Have got 3 phase here. Is that an advantage for EV charging?
Haven't actually got an EV but thinking of selling up (down sizing) and installing a charger before we go, as an added sales feature.
Haven't actually got an EV but thinking of selling up (down sizing) and installing a charger before we go, as an added sales feature.
At first glance it looks stupid doesn't it. The issue is peak demand. The actual total amount supplied doesn't need to be that big, but it needs to be available immediately. It's the classic kettles on in the Eastenders ad break scenario. Grid demand 5.30-9.30 is where most of the coal and gas generation is used and they spin some of it up just in case as it takes an appreciable number of seconds to be drawable. In contrast, EV's can dump instantaneously, they are just a big battery with a 7kW pipe so if the National Grid know they have that as peaker backup, they don't need to spin up the gas/coal power station. 150k EV's at 7kW is a Gigawatt of instantaneous supply if I've done my maths right (corrections welcomed!). So say Ratcliffe Nottingham coal plant (2Gigawatts) could be needed far less often if 300k EV's were signed up to Vehicle to Grid.
It's not a panacea but it does sort the daily problem that means a significant % of plants could go leaving just a few to cover the issue of a series of dark windless days across the whole of Europe. We have a pan Europe supply system that covers most days like that here as the wind and sun are somewhere, but with the changes to the jet stream, those blocked times when everything goes sluggish across vast areas will be more common, so some coal/gas will be needed for some time to come regardless of how many EV's on the road. Keeping it to occasional use is what will make the massive difference to emissions.
When I was on the trial, I made £150 cash payment over 6 months, but I think they were paying us at a premium over the actual supply value, so say it was £75 at pre 2021 prices say 14p/kWh that's roughly 19kW/week I supplied.
johna.clements
Established Member
It is difficult to store wind and solar. Batteries can be used for short term smoothing in demand. If the unwanted renewable energy can be used to charge you car at night it will be cheaper than the electricity during the day when everybody is working cooking etc.
You say in 1 sentence what I took an essay to say - thank you!
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
Which I'd already said in a much shorter sentence 
johna.clements
Established Member
I think both approaches are best. My reply may lack substance to some.
Do the math on the actual pence per KWh depreciation of a Lithium car battery.
It makes no sense at all to allow the grid to lean on your car battery and pay you a pittance compared to the cost of depreciation.
The only winners are the Electricity Retailers and a few people with EV leases who won't have to care about the state of the battery when they hand the car back.
If grid support becomes even slightly popular watch it (i) get written into lease contracts that you're not allowed to do it and (ii) cars be modified so that they can't do it without it being logged in the diagnostics.
It makes no sense at all to allow the grid to lean on your car battery and pay you a pittance compared to the cost of depreciation.
The only winners are the Electricity Retailers and a few people with EV leases who won't have to care about the state of the battery when they hand the car back.
If grid support becomes even slightly popular watch it (i) get written into lease contracts that you're not allowed to do it and (ii) cars be modified so that they can't do it without it being logged in the diagnostics.
The depreciation will be negligible compared to use to drive - this is not the main supply to the grid - 19kW/week is an 80 mile drive. The last generation of batteries are doing far far in excess of expectations mine is 5yrs old, 100k miles and barely dented the range, there are some that are on million miles plus. The current generation are way cheaper and better and still improving fast.
No-one but Renault offers battery lease still - it's a totally outmoded way of doing things from back in the early 2010's when we all thought batteries would not last 5 years or more.
Tesla are already working with Octopus energy on the VtG roll out. They are sorting it so the grid will communicate with the car, tell it there's a high chance of a draw on the car in the next 10 mins and the car will prepare the batteries for use (prewarming them reduces wear). Other manufacturers are looking to get in on the act - it's a source of income for your car so it makes them more attractive.
I do understand your concerns, they were valid 10 years ago, but real life billions of electric miles driven has revised them. The real world battery longevity data were already way better than anyone thought, but with the cost of fuel going up so dramatically this year, it's reached the tipping point, EV's as a core of independent travel is happening.
Things like VtG won't be perfect first time round, there will be improvements, but as a way to reduce our carbon footprint, "peaker plant" VtG is an important element and it's available now with no capital cost to electricity users. In contrast, Drax conversion to biofuel, cost billions, which goes straight onto our bills.
I would be happy to agree to disagree if you are, I'm here in UKworkshop to learn - and I truly appreciate the knowledge and skills that you and others here share. EV's are my skillset, I'm passionate to share knowledge about them, but this isn't an EV forum, so I think I should end my preaching here and get back to listening, learning and saying thank you for the help to develop my very amateur and uniformed woodworking skills.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I can't reel off figures, but if you believe climate change is a reality, then "the maths" starts to become irrelevant.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Inclined to agree. EVs more like fiddling while Rome burns.
If they were hybrids and had the potential to plug in then they could in effect become a generator which if left running could provide energy into the grid which you could get paid for, whether the cost of fuel outweighs the feedin tarif is another matter!
But for a pure EV that you have paid to charge then why would you give it back and make your vehicle unusable until recharged, yes as Dave has said it makes no sense.
Perhaps in the future a new excuse for being late for work will be " sorry my car had not charged in time" or " sorry someone stole my charging cable last night " !
Not as simple as that, you cannot just take a new supply off an existing board without checking the total existing loads, it is not an infinate supply of power and could well be on it's limits even taking diversity into account.
johna.clements
Established Member
Cars release about 25% of the CO2 in the UK.
If half those with off street parking charged their EVs with "Economy 7" from unwanted wind at night that would reduce emissions by 6%.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
I think it's questionable whether we would be able to afford the luxury of personal EVs if we ever get to the point of 100% green electricity.
Particularly bearing in mind the other major changes on the way.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news...ions-from-cars-facts-and-figures-infographics
To meet those rapid high demands we have to thank the welsh, they have a big sort of hydro power plant at Dinorwig. Those turbines can spin up in less than a minute to meet sudden demands on the grid.
I would say the cost of batteries is a major factor in buying an EV, batteries do deppreciate and lose ability to both accept a charge and to provide power, EV's could become like cordless powertools where it is not economical to buy a new battery but better to buy a new tool, and it is not a simple job to change the EV batteries.
Or peeing in the ocean to see how far it will rise, but yes when we see how much coal is being mined in Australia and the states and how much coal is still being used to generate power then even the UK's closure of all coal fired power stations and with everyone using EV's would make zero difference. To fix a massive problem requires a massive effort and change and not just nibblng round the edges.
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johna.clements
Established Member
ICE engines in hybrids will not be used to generate power for the grid. If this was a thing then larger more efficent generators in hospitals etc would be used.
With these new fangled smart meters that monitor your electricity usage why don't they use them to monitor your electricity usage and stop charging the car when you are boiling the kettle and the fridge freezer compressor is running.
johna.clements
Established Member
I was referring to 25% of vehicles using unwanted off peak wind power. What has that got to do with the other 75%.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
This is interesting Climate change: 'Sand battery' could solve green energy's big problem
There are a lot of unknowns about the future, not only the details of the impending crisis but perhaps new and viable energy solutions, looking on the bright side!
There are a lot of unknowns about the future, not only the details of the impending crisis but perhaps new and viable energy solutions, looking on the bright side!
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Just the scale of the problem.
They have one thing in common with a smart phone and that is they are not very smart!
I will avoid at all cost, already know several people that were conned into having them and none of them actually communicate readings and others that have had failed displays so you cannot even manually read them.
That will be what they are calling the Internet of things IOT, a totally connected house and again something to avoid, would you want Alexa in total control or rely on it to ensure your house does not freeze whilst you are away, forget it still early days and I don't believe in being a guinea pig at my expense.
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