Counterfeit and 'Knock-off' Tools

[G S Haydon]

Very good points Andy Kev.

On your point we know companies like LN & LV very well. We can put a face to a name and we are even shown how they make things and the people making them. This is a strong position and this is why being clear on how you do business is a wonderful asset and should be underlined by any business. What seems apparent is that LN and I am sure others are doing everything within their power to operate very responsibly.

However I don't think I would venture into even mentioning how other people do things as we don't know the circumstances. The fact we don't know might be enough to stop us buying. What can be dangerous is using terms like "China" as a generic likely hood for exploitation. It seems the wood used on the Chinese planes is FSC certified. As someone who has been in a chain of custody for FSC I know it's not an easy process to be involved with and requires robust audits. Also people in many western countries are subject to things like zero hours contracts, heath care not available free at the point of need and the like. The only way we would know is if we found out about the factory making the tools in China rather than assuming the term China means poor conditions.

On what we know we can say I want to support a business where I feel I understand and almost know the team behind it and I feel assured of their ethical position. That is very logical.

However just because we don't know the circumstances behind another business does not mean they are exploiting, to do so would draw a conclusion with no evidence. We could only say I don't know therefore I wont buy from them rather than using generic terms that could be seen as negative or proved to be wrong.

If you wanted to be ultra ethical you could even say it is a waste of resource to buy and produce most of the new tools. There are still thousands of perfectly good tools available. By making new versions that offer little or no significant improvement we are needlessly consuming and polluting instead of using what we have.

 

[Trafalgar]

And it's always worth remembering that the old boys didn't seem too hindered by what they had to work with in the mid-1700s:

http://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.com/G ... TID=536521

As far as I'm concerned the tools used to build this desk were nothing short of magical. I couldn't coax that kind of work out of mine if I had three lifetimes in which to try.

 

[bugbear]

And it's always worth remembering that the old boys didn't seem too hindered by what they had to work with in the mid-1700s:

That's an interesting and novel observation. Do you have any other examples?

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Andy Kev and Graham Haydon - two very thoughtful and informed posts there. (Shame about the silliness since.)

On the subject of morality and buying Far Eastern products, I agree that the ethics of the business you're buying from might well be a consideration for many. However, given a choice between a locally-made tool and a Far Eastern one, both of which are well-made and fit for purpose, I think it's wrong (bordering on outright bigotry) to reject the Far East product just because it's Chinese or whatever. It's a bit more acceptable to make the conscious choice to support a local manufacturer. It would also be fair enough to reject a product that wasn't of acceptable quality or clearly didn't comply with the law with regard to respecting others trademarks.

More competition in the market is a good thing. It keeps prices lower for consumers, and makes the high-price suppliers look to their laurels. If those suppliers are providing a good product and offering something more than the competition, then they'll survive.

The business environment keeps changing; if it didn't, the rise of power tools and manufactured furniture would not have eroded the hand-tool market, and we'd still be buying well-made Stanley and Record planes, Ridgway brace bits, Tyzack Sons and Turner saws, Stormont chisels and Griffiths of Norwich moulding planes amongst many, many others. Who knows where the market will go next?

Edit to add - It seems the mods have been busy - the silliness has been deleted. The thread reads better now.

 

[G S Haydon]

Cheers CC. I think it's essential to only refer to what is known. Applying stereotypes without evidence is Dangerous. As I said, I'm happy to use the term "I don't know, therefore I wont" rather than "I don't know, therefore I will assume and speculate and potentially be wrong".

The one thing that all this speculation has made me reflect on the most is how unique woodworking hand tools are. Quality trade style tools made for the past 250 years were made to be durable, high quality and fit for purpose. That now also covers tools made for enthusiast and trade users. There is, in theory, so many tools out there that from an environmental and resource based approach production could be reduced and all the existing stock used.

And how efficient the Bailey concept. A thin iron using less resource to make. A simple pressed cap iron that works like a dream using the very minimum of material. They last and last and last too! For those with a holistic view on resources, environment, effective use of human time the vintage market seems a very sensible choice.

 

[Mr_P]

Moral high ground is a bit tricky when I'm typing away on a Microsoft Made in China keyboard.

I change my computer about every 5 years, most of my tools will last me a lifetime and a few more after that.

I chose 2nd hand tools mainly down to price, even decent Chinese ones would cost considerably more.

Yipppeeee just bought a stunning Victorian dovetail saw on BIN for £20.

 

[G S Haydon]

Same here!

I think that is what is so reassuring about hand tools. So long lasting, "heirloom quality" is the phrase I think .

My point exactly with wooden planes etc. Seriously good stuff ready to be enjoyed for another lifetime. Enjoy the saw!

 

[Carl P]

A little off-topic but...

Just wondered if the rejection of free market capitalism that has obviously now taken place will lead to other changes, maybe robust union representation for the very low paid, healthcare free at the point of delivery or training policemen to differentiate between black children and legitimate targets?

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Job and Knock]

I change my computer about every 5 years, most of my tools will last me a lifetime and a few more after that.

Yes, but I've yet to come across a jointer plane which won't work because the the installed version of WoodShavingApp (version 1.0) is too old to be compatible with Timber v7.0

 

[Job and Knock]

Didn't Stanley buy Acorn to make the Made in England Stanleys and let the quality of the Acorns drop of a cliff.

Ermmm. Stanley actually bought J A Chapman (in 1937) who made Acorn and whio were well known brace makers - they in turn appear to have taken over the name from GTL (or was it that GTL bought them in and sold them, anyone know?). I can assure that the quality started off over the cliff - at least based on the pre-Stanley examples that I own or have seen. It's far more likely that Stanley bought Chapman's and started manufacture in the UK to circumvent import tarriffs which all countries introduced after the 1929 crash. They also started up in Canada and Australia at the same time, didn't they? Also from examples of older Stanleys I have acquired I'd say that Stanley weren't ready for full production until the war got going at which time the MoS rook over and told them what to make (not planes - that was Record's job). That's judging from the number of mid to late 1930s American planes with early British Stanley irons I've seen in recent years. I've yet to see a British-made Stanley with original rosewood handles, either.

It is more likely that the 10 year recession of the 1930s combined with the move towards much simpler, machine made furniture, and the general move to powered machinery in even smaller shops in the 1930s which presaged that demise. The introduction of the #4-1/2H or #5-1/2H late in the day probably made little difference. I actually have two early post-war UK-made Stanleys, #4-1/2 and #5-1/2. The castings sides are far thicker on those than on the "lesser" planes, or even the #6, 7 and 8 planes. I wonder if these were made as "spoilers"

 

[Andy Kev.]

Graham Haydon and Cheshire Chappie,

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not indulging in some sort of wild anti-Chinese bigotry. You are both implying the concept of innocent until proven guilty, something to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. However, the People's Republic of China has had and continues to have an abysmal record on human rights and it is also well documented as being the world's worst offender in terms of blatant ripping off of brands etc. (which practice is not indulged in by QS). There have also been a number of cases of Chinese (and other nations') firms doing out sourced work for western companies and treating their employees at worst abysmally and at best nowhere near as well as we expect in the west. So my personal stance on anything coming out of China has changed to "unfortunately probably guilty until demonstrated to be innocent" because I think the accumulated evidence justifies that. The evidence seems to me to demand caution.

However, I agree that it is infinitely more pleasant and preferable to make a conscious choice to support more local firms and their are enough quality tools coming out of the UK and then Canada and the US to happily justify that.

Oh ... and I'm pretty sure my laptop was made in China too ... what can you do?

 

[Jacob]

I said 'government control', not 'government purchasing'. Two entirely different things. For the avoidance of doubt, that's 'government control OF the market' and not 'government purchasing IN the market'.

Sorry still puzzled. When has the woodwork tool market been affected by "government control, cartels, monopolies"?

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Sure, the Chinese have an appalling human rights record, but the US lead the way in violent invasions to bring about regime change (backed by the uk), which seems to end in regimes 10x worse than the ones they invaded and the US lock up a higher proportion of their own population than any other country, but it would be a little unfair to blame LN for this. Are LN more local than QS, both seem far away?

 

[n0legs]

Where's page 16 gone ???????

I suspect dark and mysterious forces are at work :lol:

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Where's page 16 gone ???????

I suspect dark and mysterious forces are at work :lol:

Probably been stolen by a chinese forum who will bring out an inferior version of it

 

[n0legs]

Christ !!!!

There's loads of posts being era...







:lol:

 

[n0legs]

Probably been stolen by a chinese forum who will bring out an inferior version of it

BEST F****** post of the thread :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


MODS please keep Paddy's post.

 

[Jacob]

They don't allow discussion of you know what in case women and children are looking in. And it's OK to knock China but not America.

 

[G S Haydon]

Hey Andy, I knew you weren't . And honestly, it's been a fun discussion.

Meanwhile in China.......http://www.cjjj.org/xm/images/image/20090409-7.jpg http://www.cjjj.org/Eng/Projects/Carpen ... 090526.asp

And we have some work to do http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 71045.html

And to think the main thing in world strife is if a Bedrock plane is made in Location X or Location Y

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Andy Kev - just in case anybody is in doubt, I was not aiming the 'bigotry' charge at you. You've quite clearly researched and thought about your position, and allow your findings to influence your purchasing decisions. That's fair enough. I was thinking more about comments I've seen in other places (not on this forum) which did border on the outright bigotted.

On the wider question of politics and woodworking tools, perhaps in a very small way we can influence things by insisting that what we buy is of good quality and fit for purpose. I suspect that if it came to light that a supplier of Far East tools was using sweatshops, their business would decline, and perhaps that's a good thing - it would send the message that sweatshop goods were not welcome. That said, I wonder how many people are using Far Eastern assembled mobile phones, kettles, underpants....

As to the Chinese regime - well, yes, I'd agree it's not the world's most wholesome. That said, we have dealings with all sorts of 'iffy' regimes around the world. We can't just ignore China, they're the largest (or second largest, depending which set of economic data you use) economy on the planet. I suppose it's one of those areas in which each individual must make their own decisions.

My personal view is that the UK suppliers of decent quality tools of Far Eastern manufacture would not knowingly support sweatshops, a view based on the manner in which they treat their customers in this country. I've no proof of that, though. Of those traders supplying tools of lesser quality - well, who knows what their suppliers are like?