Construction tips for gate

[dangermouse2020]

Hi everyone

Im a long time reader of the forum, and im a keen woodworker, although my skills aren't very refined yet considering im very early along my wood working journey but i finally plucked up the courage to post on here so here goes.

I am just about to construct my new ledge and brace framed wooden gate, but i have a few questions about the finer construction details that i am hoping you can help me with.

I plan to construct the frame using mortice and tennon joints, but im unsure which glue to use.

1. Any suggestions on what glue would be best? Preferably something that doesn't take to long to dry.

The front of the gate will be cladded in t&g boards, which i had planed to be grooved into the top rail and stiles and then each board glued together. But im not really sure how the cladding needs to be fixed to the front of the frame? Should it be pinned or screwed to the mid-rail?

2. What fixings should i use for the cladding? and what length would be most appropriate?

The gate itself is approximately 2m x 1m and both 4x2" gate posts will be secured to masonry walls, but i am unsure what size masonry bolts i should use so any ideas? I was thinking maybe 4" long, 2" for the gate posts and 2" into the masonry.

3. But what length and diameter would be best?


One last thing that is more out of curiosity, does the bottom rail have to be wider than the other rails and stiles? Much like it is on doors, and is it purely for greater strength/support at the base? I only ask as it seems that it breaks up the symmetry of the frame dimensions if the bottom rail is wider.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post, and i hope you guys can help

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Well done for posting....you wont regret it

Glue - either pva (white glue like regular evostik) but rated for outdoor use....evostick for outdoor is in blue bottles, interior is green bottles. If not pva then polyurethane glue is also good.

If you use T&G, you might want to sink the tops and bottoms into the rails with a dado/trench/channel. If you do, dont glue them...let them float or they'll just split along the joins as they expand/contract with moisture change.

More common one sees feather edge used in cladding (on exterior pieces). This is simply pinned from one side such that the ledge and brace are hidden by the cladding ie vertically mounted. Each pin is hidden by the next overlapping board. The end result looks like close boarded fencing on one side and the visible frame on the other.
Bottom rail width is an aesthetic consideration ie the larger ones give a more pleasing sense of proportion to many. However, as you point out it will interrupt the symmetry so its your call. I would draw both and review which I preferred if it were me doing it

Keep us posted with progress (take pics and post them)

 

[Racers]

Hi, Dangermouse

Don't rely on glue use pegs to hold the joints together, I did a fence and gate for a neighbour and used dry oak pegs in all the joints no glue, the dry pegs expand and lock every thing together. Its still looking good.

Pete

 

[G S Haydon]

Just to put some meat on the bones on Pete's excellent point the technique you will want to use is drawboring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhc12thf2fc

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you use PVA, get a D4 - blue Evo Stik and the the like are water resistant, not water proof. Everbuild do one. Cascamite or similar is fine, and polyurethane (which I don't like) is good for gap filling - which is important as the biggest enemy of outdoor woodwork is TRAPPED water.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Believe in days of yore paint was used, not glue. Logic being that joint interior was then finished against the elements and the strength should be in the joinery.

 

[dangermouse2020]

Cheers for your replies guys, your advice has been really helpful but it has thrown up a couple of more questions if you don't mind. After looking on your link for drawboring tenons it says glue isn't really necessary so as long the mortice and tenon joints are tight i might not use glue, but if i do then i will make sure i use the external stuff recommended.

With regards the t&g, the mid and bottom rail is only 1.1/4 " thick and the cladding will sit on top of it. The stiles and top rail will be 2" thick, so the cladding cant be grooved into the bottom rail but it will be grooved into the top and side rails (hope i explained well enough). No no glue for the cladding but when you say floating do you mean no fixings at all? i.e no pins/nails/screws just the t&g boards fitted into the top and side rail grooves?

I was thinking hidden pins into the grove of the t&g boards pinned into the mid and bottom rail would hold the boards more securely in place? You guys know better than me im just trying to get it right in my head

Yeh i have seen the feather edge ones you mention, but i prefer the look of the t&g cladding but will definitely bare it in mind.

Ah i see so the bottom rail width being wider is more of a optical illusion to give better proportions, i will follow your advice on that one and see which looks better, but i see a lot of you guys use wider bottom rails so i imagine it does look better.

A couple of questions about drawboring,

1. Is drawboring a lot stronger than just using normal pegged mortice and tennon joints?
2. Can i just use dowel from the merchants for the pegs (as in pine softwood) or do the pegs really need to be a hardwood?
3. What size pegs would be best?

One last thing, what size masonry bolts would be best for fixing the two 4x2" gate posts in position?

Sorry for so many questions :lol: its just i want to make sure i do this gate right as i will be living with it for years. I will definitely keep you updated and will post pics as long as it doesn't all end up as firewood

Thanks

 

[Racers]

Hi, Dangermouse

I made my own Oak pegs by hammering some oak through a plate with a 1/2" inch hole drilled in it, you can buy dowel plates or make your own from 6mm steel plate.
Draw boring is about the same as pegging may be less as the dowel is under stress, I used 2, 1/2" pegs for each M&T and a diagonal brace for the gate.

As for fixing I used this type of fixing but with stainless steel bolts http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=1938495031.

Pete

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

if you're using pegs, its not about hardwood vs softwood.....its about weather resistance. Generally of course hardwoods are way more durable outside than untreated softwood (pine). The ultimate would be teak, the king of outside woods due to its naturally occuring oils that prevent decay (also madly expensive).

The issue of floating with t&g boards is about moisture movement avoidance. T&G boards will expand and contract across their grain (ie across their width) a pretty large amount with the changing seasons ie humidity. If you glue them, the glued bits will stay put...everything else will warp around it and they will split....really badly...and ruin the look of the gate. You're suggesting you seat the central panel in a groove using the thicker stiles and top rail right? So their edges will be hidden....thats fine, when you come to assemble the frame, using pegs or glue, whichever you prefer, slide the panel into the grooves and it wil be mechanically "locked" in place by the frame. Use no glue or pins anywhere on the panel...despite what might seem counter intuitive...you dont need them believe me.

Here's a picture of an outdoor planter I made recently. Note the central panel is also t&g, and also housed in a dado top and bottom (but not the sides). This is floating, no glue, no fixings. It can flex with the seasonal humidity drift and it wont split. I'l post the pic in a mo...its too big...need to resize

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

heres what Im getting at about floating T&G panels. (This piece was made from a pub bench rescued from a skip by the way so apologies for the grungy look...it ends up being painted to solve that later)

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Here's a few more of the anatomy to help you see the joints etc

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

and finally....in situ

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

no comments about the gas Barby thankyou....Ive been doing charcoal for 20 years and finally succumbed when I built this house!!

 

[charvercarver]

If you're going to drawbore you need to use a hardwood peg and it needs to be straight grained. The point of a drawbore is to use the pegs in tension to pull the tennon into the mortice, if you use a peg that has grain running out you create a weak spot. Oak is a very traditional choice for drawboring. Simply pegging a joint won't make any difference until the glue fails.

 

[RogerS]

Don't stick them ni a groove at the bottom. It will trap water and they will rot

 

[Phil Pascoe]

+1 RogerS

Look at at a framed ledge and brace door - the water should run off.

 

[dangermouse2020]

Hi Pete, i have had a look at dowel plates but unfortunately they are a little to pricey for me at the moment. I will definitely invest in one further down the line but as i hadn't factored in the price of a dowel plate in the original plans its way out of my budget :? I do really like the idea of making my own pegs though.

1/2" sounds good for the peg size, it should be a good size for the m&t joints with the 4x2" frame? and also the 4 x 1.1/4" and 8x1.11/4" rails?

Thanks for the tip on the fixings as well

Thanks for all the advice Bob, i initially thought softwood pegs as pine dowel would be easy enough to come by. But i take your point about weathering so it looks like oak pegs is the way forward, they should give a nice contrast also. Im hoping one of the local timber merchants stocks oak dowel that i can cut down for pegs

Yep you got it the frame made from thicker stiles and top rail, with the t&g panel slotted into grooves inside the stiles and top rail, and the t&g panel rested on the mid and bottom rails. Your right not using any pins or glue on the panel does seem counter intuitive but i will resist the temptation :lol:

So i should construct the frame first, use the drawbored tenons to lock the frame in place, and then insert the t&g panel afterwards? Or should i assemble the frame leaving the pegs out, then insert the t&g panel into the frame, and then insert the pegs to mechanically lock everything in place?

Thanks for the pictures they really did help to actually see floating t&g in practice. By the way in the last picture with the BBQ is that a trebuchet i see on the left? :lol:

Charvercarver i will do my best to acquire straight grain pegs, but sourcing them might be a bit of a problem.

Couple more questions if you don't mind and then i should be finished picking your brain. With the right router bit is it possible to dado the stiles and top rail using my trend router? (i don't own a router table)

Also i was thinking leaving the pegs proud for the m&t joints for the top rail to the stiles, that way it would be an extra design feature on the front of the gate, and then cutting the pegs flush on the other m&t joints on the back of the gate otherwise the pegs would be in the way of the hinges fitting (if that makes sense to you). What do you think? Or would you suggest all pegs cut flush?

Thanks for all your help so far guys, i really do appreciate it

 

[Graham Orm]

Don't glue the T&G together. Make sure you leave space for expansion of the T&G.

 

[charvercarver]

You can get oak dowels from axminster, you should be able to find a section with straight grain. If you look at old timber frame buildings you can see they left the pegs proud, for a gate I think you'd be okay either way. I'd go with whatever you think looks best. You should be able to cut a groove using your router and it's edge guide with a straight cutting bit.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

No worries with the router. Take up to three passes as you go deeper so you don't stress the motor too much. If the rail is too narrow and the router tips, clamp it to an off cut to widen the surface for stability