CNC Machine V's Laser Cutting Machine

[Jensmith]

I'm looking into the options of getting a CNC machine or laser cutting machine to expand the range of 1/12th scale fireplaces I can make.

I can only afford the entry level type machines - ~£1K

For that sort of money, what options are available? I'm wondering what the advantages and disadvantages are of the two types of machine.

I have some samples of laser cutting done so I know it can cut out extremely fine detail but everything is 2D. The samples I have though were cut on a machine costing £18K so appart from speed and ability to cut through thicker wood /materials, can a cheap machine still do the job?

I'm also wondering about reliability as this has come up because I was going to get some false hinges, fret work etc cut on a laser cutter (the £18K one) but it has broken down and is beyond repair so the guy has folded, hence I'm looking at options. I'm learning that relying on other people is risky so I'd like to be able to do as much stuff myself as I can.

If laser cutters have high maintenance costs (I know the one I saw for £1K has a laser lifespan of 1000-1500 hours), is it really a viable option?
I can't afford for it to break down or need replacing every year etc... and maintenance alone was £175 / year for this particular model with a new laser costing £300. (HPC laser 3020 pro)

I see a CNC router being more versatile as I could cut 3D shapes and mouldings but how fine a detail can you get with them?

1/12th scale stuff can be very finely detailed - say for miniature fretwork etc.

I would ideally like to be able to go along to a shop and see them in action but I'm struggling to find anywhere local to Manchester. Does anyone know of any shops I could go to?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. If you want examples of what sort of thing I'm talking about I can post a couple of photos if it would help.

thanks,

Jennifer,

 

[CNC Paul]

Jennifer,

You cannot compare a CNC Router and a CNC Laser apart from the CNC bit, they each perform similar tasks but in a completely different way.

My recommendation would be the router, a laser on a limited budget is asking for trouble a 1K laser would be around 40 watts so the limit would be cutting very thin material and engraving and a small cutting area, around A4 size.

If you want to cut out dolls houses there is no better way than a CNC router, I would try and save a bit more cash and get something a bit more rigid and add a HF spindle.
A router will give you a greater range of work especially 3D, the downside to this is the cost of 3D software. the type of work that you produce would not be cost effective to machine and sell but it is excellent for making moulds for casting.

My machine can cut 10' x 5' sheets but I often machine small delicate parts with a 1mm cutter.

You are more than welcome see mine in action but it might be a bit far for you.


If you have any question fire away, maybe show us some pictures.

 

[promhandicam]

Have you thought about sub contracting the work to someone like Paul rather than investing in the equipment yourself? This might be a better way forward.

 

[marcros]

Have you thought about sub contracting the work to someone like Paul rather than investing in the equipment yourself? This might be a better way forward.

I have a few bits that I could do with Laser cutting. Do you have contact details for Paul?

Thanks
Mark

 

[promhandicam]

I have a few bits that I could do with Laser cutting. Do you have contact details for Paul?

I think Paul only does cnc router work - both 2D and 3D. His contact details are on his website - see the link at the bottom of his post.

 

[Jensmith]

Ok, the following 2 pictures are examples of laser cutting sent to me as samples. I don't need copies of these, but I would like to know if this sort of thing is possible through a CNC router. I have a feeling that the smallest fretwork is only really achievable with laser cutting and that is fine, I'm not necessarily looking for that sort of detail.

I did try to get my pieces laser cut through sub-contracting but as mentioned this has fallen through and this could be a real problem if it happens when it's really important to my business.

I just want to explore my options. If it costs too much to get decent equipment then I will have to sub-contract but if there's things I can do myself that opens up my options and capabilities then I want to explore those.


Fretwork 2


Fretwork 1

 

[Jensmith]

Jennifer,

You cannot compare a CNC Router and a CNC Laser apart from the CNC bit, they each perform similar tasks but in a completely different way.

My recommendation would be the router, a laser on a limited budget is asking for trouble a 1K laser would be around 40 watts so the limit would be cutting very thin material and engraving and a small cutting area, around A4 size.

If you want to cut out dolls houses there is no better way than a CNC router, I would try and save a bit more cash and get something a bit more rigid and add a HF spindle.
A router will give you a greater range of work especially 3D, the downside to this is the cost of 3D software. the type of work that you produce would not be cost effective to machine and sell but it is excellent for making moulds for casting.

My machine can cut 10' x 5' sheets but I often machine small delicate parts with a 1mm cutter.

You are more than welcome see mine in action but it might be a bit far for you.


If you have any question fire away, maybe show us some pictures.

Thank you Paul, that's very helpful.

I was worried that entry level machine wouldn't be up to the job which is why I wanted some advice, though I also have to consider that my work is small scale with fairly thin wood in general so I'm not going to be asking a lot of the machines either.

I don't want to post any of my prototype designs on the open forum in case of being copied but I will send you a PM about it.

The pictures represent what is possible with a laser cutter to give an example of the sort of fine detail we're talking about though I don't need to do the very small scale stuff.

I was looking into making moulds for casting for certain elements so that would be useful and I like the flexibility of being able to do 3D stuff as well as producing mouldings for mantlepieces and that sort of thing.

I'm really lost as to what sort of machine I should be looking at - if you could point me in the direction of what you think might work best I would appreciate it. I then know what sort of budget we're talking about.

Thanks,

Jennifer,

 

[TheTiddles]

I don't know what material that is but you've got a lot of burning there, more air assist would be a start but if you want to avoid having to spend ages sanding then a CO2 or nitrogen halo would be an idea.

Cheap laser plotters have cheap lasers in them, Chinese made tubes are not likely to last 20% as long as a UK made one. That said, if it takes 90 seconds to make a bed full of parts, how many can you make in a couple of thousand hours?

You'd get a similar level of detail with a small CNC mill/router, though I can't think of one that costs as little as £1000 off the top of my head.

There are loads of companies that will laser cut for you, some can even be die-cut by the looks of them. Is making them with a scrollsaw not economic?

Aidan

 

[Jensmith]

I don't know what material that is but you've got a lot of burning there, more air assist would be a start but if you want to avoid having to spend ages sanding then a CO2 or nitrogen halo would be an idea.

Cheap laser plotters have cheap lasers in them, Chinese made tubes are not likely to last 20% as long as a UK made one. That said, if it takes 90 seconds to make a bed full of parts, how many can you make in a couple of thousand hours?

You'd get a similar level of detail with a small CNC mill/router, though I can't think of one that costs as little as £1000 off the top of my head.

There are loads of companies that will laser cut for you, some can even be die-cut by the looks of them. Is making them with a scrollsaw not economic?

Aidan

Hi Aidan,

I am told that it is Basswood. This isn't my work - just samples sent to me to show me what was possible.

The laser cutter I referred to is a UK company with UK manufacture.

How would you cut something so small on a scrollsaw? I have a cheap one but I think items as fine as this would break and/ or be impossible to cut with that sort of detail. The time spent wouldn't be economical I don't think.

Are laser cutting companies willing to cut fiddly little parts for a small scale business?

 

[acewoodturner]

Hi Jennifer

As a laser owner I take a keen interest in all things laser.
To answer some of your questions

You wont get much of a laser for 1K. It would have to be a Chinese one and the quality of them is not very high. It would be water cooled instead of air cooled and would involve plumbing it in. The tubes are glass instead of metal and you would be lucky to get 100 - 200 hours out of it. They are not too accurate either- repeatability factor I am talking about if you have to do more than one pass to cut out. There are several companies who import them into this country and can easily be found on ebay for example. There are no companies making tubes in this country for laser engravers. A decent entry laser would cost you about 5K, this would be an Epilog Zing and because it is a fairly new model there wont be many on the second hand market yet. Epilog now make their own tubes instead of purchasing them from Synrad.
The are good reasons for you to purchase either a cnc or a laser. I have looked at your website and was impresssed with your products. The mouldings etc could be done on a cnc router and your cut outs would probably be done best on a laser. You cant get square cut internal corners on a cnc as it is a round cutter that is doing the work, you will have to tidy up the corners. A laser can do square internal corners but as it works by burning whatever material it is using therer will always be brown charring.
I havent even mention the software requirements for both machines!
On my laser the only cost so far is the electricity to power it. There is no other cost apart from eventual regassing of the tube which will be around the region of £1500.
There are no parts to wear out and the parts being cut dont need to be held down as there is nothing coming into contact with the wood apart from the laser beam.
A cnc router in your price bracket would be using a Kress router and the noise would probably drive you up the wall. As Paul said earlier a HF spindle would be better.
I dont know if you work from home and if you have close neighbours but if you do you would be limited due to the noise.

Sorry to be a bit long winded but as you can see there are pros and cons for both types of machines, neither of which would be the complete solution.
please pm me if you have further questions and we could chat on the phone as it would be easier than typing out long answers.

Mike

 

[Daven]

Just to add to what has been said here - I have a 3020pro from HPC laser - the only plumbing is to a tank that will hold 30ltr of de-ironised water. The machine comes with a water pump and a compressor for the air assist. I cut up to 4mm wood with it - laser ply being the easiest taking one pass. I have not noticed any accuracy problems with second (or more) passes.

I would avoid the Chinese lasers on ebay - HPC machines are from China but they make sure they are set up correctly and give good support. Software is available for free if you need it (I use DoubleCad). How well you look after the tube depends how long they last, I've had mine since October last year and it is cutting as good as it was the first day I used it. For serious hobby I think it is a great machine.

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[TheTiddles]

You can run a laser cutter off free CAD software, even Microsoft Word at a push, as it's a 2D array of lines all you have to do is assign laser power and speed properties to those lines and press print, it's that simple, of course the more integrated the software is with the machine the easier and faster it gets.

As a general rule, people will make for you anything that makes them money, unless they owe you a favour or two, in which case they might do it for free. It might take some looking around but there are a lot of people out there who have these machines and would do it for you. Basswood is a pretty soft, generic plain wood, laser ply might give much better results depending how thin or thick you want the material to be.

Just becase something's made in China doesn't mean it won't be good, high precision German motor/gearbox combinations are often built in China under the German company's direction. All things added up I wouldn't have thought you'd get what you are looking for from a laser, whereas a small CNC router will be prolific when you've sussed how to use it and the parts are likely to cost tens of pounds to replace, not hundreds to thousands

Aidan

ps - lasers don't burn, they ablate!

Aidan

 

[cgw59]

Hi Jen,
I work in a college where we have both Laser and CNC and the advice you have been given by the members here is spot on. The only things I would add are, have a look at Techsoft who supply Rowland CNC equipment which i think is the type of machine best suited to your needs. The laser we use is an 18K epilog , brill machine for very small intricate work the CNC we use for other work is an MDX40 this has specialist software supplied were as the laser is being run from Coraldraw. I also use a free software that can be down loaded to trace bitmaps and convert them for use on the cnc , ( very useful if your CAD skills aren't to hot) its called "inkscape".
I would suggest if you go along top your local FE college they will have these machines and will demonstrate the capabilities of both for you .
Colin
p.s. I used the cnc to make window frames and roof tiles for a dolls house for the students and also the laser to make internal door frames etc

 

[TheTiddles]

we use an Epilog too and although we have hundreds of thousands of squids worth of eqipment it is one of the cheapest and best machines we have. We have a Roland 4-axis machine too... in my opinion it's a kid's toy with a price tag off a Rolls-Royce

Aidan

 

[Dibs-h]

Are laser cutting companies willing to cut fiddly little parts for a small scale business?

I have had quite a bit of laser cutting done over the last 12 months - The router plates\rings group buy and subsequently some automotive\motorsport stuff.
a
I rang round most of the country for prices and finally settled on a firm in South Yorkshire - no one could beat the price and quality is extremely good. One thing to bear in mind is most do have a min charge - £100 is about the going rate. Also how many items would you want and the qty of each?

The price quoted by the firm I use includes delivery - PM if you want the details.

HIH

Dibs

p.s. The tolerances of the equipment used to cut the stuff I had done was +/- 0.1mm. I haven't been down - everything is done via email\phone and delivered by courier.

EDIT:

Just spoken to my contact at the cutters - they have 2 machines, an industrial laser (which cut my stuff) and a smaller machine. The smaller machine is an Epilog and has a bed size of 600x900. Can do 4mm thick. Min charge is around £60 and it doesn't matter a job whether you have 1000 of 1 items or 1000 totally different items.

Let me know if you want his details.

 

[Jensmith]

Thanks Dibs. I think my problem would be that at this stage it's just a few pieces so I've not got the volume to justify a minimum order. Daven has cut a few pieces for me which I may get in the post today. Depending on how they turn out will depend on what I do next but I'm hoping they will be good.

That is impressive with the tolerances and I imagine this is one of the key differences between a cheaper laser and an industrial one.

 

[acewoodturner]

Jen

A laser that can cut metal will not cut wood due to the difference in wavelengths of the beam. You are looking for someone with a CO2 laser not a Nd Yag.

Mike

 

[Dibs-h]

Jen

A laser that can cut metal will not cut wood due to the difference in wavelengths of the beam. You are looking for someone with a CO2 laser not a Nd Yag.

Mike

Mike

They've been specifically asked "can you cut timber" and they stated they can - be a bit daft on their part if it turned out they couldn't. Besides their website states they do plastics, wood, aluminium, steel, card, etc.

HIH

Dibs

 

[Daven]

As I have the same machine Jennifer was looking at it made sence for me to cut the items she needs and can see if it will be good enough for her needs. I think the main problem with the scale Jennifer is working with is the size of the 'kerf'. My machine is around 0.5mm - not sure how that compares to Mikes or the Epilog. Some of the parts had lines very close to one another so they 'bleed' when cutting. The smallest part was 0.67cm x 0.33 and 5 boxes within it (Grate of an ovan)!

The tolerances of the LaserScript 3020 is :-
Minimum Shaping Character: 1 X 1mm / (0.04 X0.04)in.
Resolution Ratio: 0.0254mm / 0.001in. (1000dpi)
Resetting Positioning: Accuracy less than or equal to 0.01mm / 0.0004in

Cheers

Dave