Sure, that is also an option. He might try out a secret mitre DT.
Takes a bit of practice, though.
Biscuit Joiner or Dowels
- Thread starter Brdy
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Takes a bit of practice, though.
Hornbeam
Established Member
Not understanding the relevence. I am assuming hid mitres are long enough to insert a biscuit. The points I was making are
- You dont have to buy lots of expensive tools like track saws
- Shooting material is a good hand skill so making a shooting board would be much cheaper than a track saw and develop a set of skills which would be applicable to lots of applications
It's a kind of dovetail joint. No dowels, biscuits...
There are videos on YT of people making them with hand tools.
Not the easiest joint to make, but it would work for a waterfall kind of table the OP
wants to make.
Hornbeam
Established Member
I know what a secret mitre dove tail is but given the fact that he is starting to make furniture I may wrongly have assumed that this was more complex than his skills. The simplest approach without biscuits /dowel jigs etc would be a simple long mitre with reinforcing splines which could be in the same wood or contrasting.
HOJ
Established Member
Poor old @Brdy has probably abandoned all hope.
I've seen you post numerous times about this, You clearly have a pup, could you have not sent it back to Festool to get checked, my 500 & 700 have been faultless, in reliability, accuracy/precision, plus I stretch their designed purpose to an extreme.
Question, have you made any furniture before?
Clearly from the range of response posts, there are lots of options, but for me I'd use a biscuit jointer to help with alignment, on the basis I've cut the mitres accurately in the first place.
How will you you prep your timber to this range of sizes?
I've seen you post numerous times about this, You clearly have a pup, could you have not sent it back to Festool to get checked, my 500 & 700 have been faultless, in reliability, accuracy/precision, plus I stretch their designed purpose to an extreme.
@HOJ shame we don't live a lot closer because we could maybe see why you are getting accuracy that I just cannot achieve, it has delivered on sheet goods but only with the Domino alignment jig from FC tools and I am wondering if the 700 was pushing the concept of the 500 too far. I do give it it's due in that it makes a nice oblong hole with accurate depth.
Reffc
Established Member
I had the same dilemma but ended up buying a Makita Biscuit joiner and some decent quality biscuits (from Rutlands). There's no doubt, done with care that biscuits do add strength but they're not in the same league as say mitre tongue jointing which I would normally use where greater strength was required but one of the benefits is the ability to use them for things like mitre jointing and helping position parts when clamping up. Be careful which biscuit joiner you pick if you go down that route. Precision is everything and cheaper tools just don't seem to cut the mustard. Bare minimum quality and precision seems to start with Makita/Dewalt if you can't stretch to something like a Mafell. One advantage over dowels is easier and faster alignment and I think a little more versatility. The Festool domino jointer is also excellent but a bit spendier. don't be put off a good biscuit joiner, they're still good and useful tools. I tried butt joining some 18mm thick ply sections at 90 degrees recently for a job and they added considerable strength. I did try a sacrificial joint first and was pleasantly surprised how well the joint held so had no qualms about using the joiner. My usual blind mitre joints would have been stronger but taken considerably longer.
Brdy
Established Member
I'm still reading the many kind replies and getting slightly overwhelmed lol.
I have not made furniture before, but went to college about 15 years ago and did different projects over 2 years in woodwork, end project was to make a sash window.
I have yet to buy many tools so this post was mainly about which kind of direction to start my tool collection.
I intended to buy a band saw, planer thicknesser combo and a joining tool. I have the usual DIY tools already such as impact driver and drill, mitre saw (old hand me down), circular saw.
Any further direction would be appreciated.
Reffc
Established Member
If not already in your arsenal, a track saw is an inexpensive and surprisingly useful too. Despite having a reasonably sized bench saw which I can rip full sheets down in, it's more convenient sometimes to use the track-saw and it's very accurate and quick. The other tool I have which I bought for one job and thought I'd rarely use has also proved very useful and that's a Spotnails Maestri SE30-08 bradnailer. I have a compact workshop and with he dust extraction, saw, router table and assembly benches I have little spare room for a large compressor hence bought this electric corded nailer. Very precise, reliable and useful when panel pinning for gluing up. If not already on your list, a 1/4 inch combination router is also invaluable (plunge and fixed bases).
Hornbeam
Established Member
A good set of quality chisels, a tennon saw, 2 bench planes, a set of marking out tools and a course and fine sharpening stone. Probably buy good quality second hand for well under £200
Molynoox
Established Member
What about Peter Millard's new loose tenon jig? I've not tried it but looks like it could be a winner... Cheaper than Domino and achieves similar result?
petermillard
Established Member
Thanks. It’s aimed squarely at 90° carcass joints so not easily adapted for bevel cuts, and also requires a router, and some experience to get the best from it. For bevels something like the Peanut 2 mini jig and connectors work well but again requires a fairly beefy router.
Depending on the materials chosen, I think the OPs biggest issue will be getting accurate bevel cuts for a waterfall-style table, so I’d personally be looking to solve that (tracksaw probably has the best bang/buck) before getting too far down the rabbit-hole of jointing.
P
pe2dave
Established Member
Makita biscuit joints. Works well and can be accurate.
Brdy
Established Member
Thank for the advice everyone!
If anyone knows of a tracksaw going id be happy to take a look.
If anyone knows of a tracksaw going id be happy to take a look.
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I've filed a couple of blades for rip cuts with my jigsaw, and they work an absolute treat! They cut straight, and so fast!Great on the crosscut, but no jigsaw performs on rip. Which is why so many manufacturers advertisement vids show cross cutting only.
Might CC 145mm, but I'll wager a 45mm rip would have it wobbling all over the place
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Biscuit.
Dowels are a long defunct system. They're used in chipboard, and thats about the sum of their usefulness.
Difficult to align, they dont make a strong joint as the hole is nearly always sloppy. In all, dowels are best left where they are.
Consigned to history.
Dowels are a long defunct system. They're used in chipboard, and thats about the sum of their usefulness.
Difficult to align, they dont make a strong joint as the hole is nearly always sloppy. In all, dowels are best left where they are.
Consigned to history.
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
First of all, what wood are you planning to use?
If veneered MDF, then you definitely do not need anything more than to mitre the ends and glue them up. MDF does not have a grain direction.
Even if you are glueing up solid wood mitres, you do not need reinforcing. Mitres are close on long grain. They are not end grain. To ensure that the mitres glue well, there is a trick called "sizing". This involves rubbing the ends with glue, and letting it dry partly. The aim here is to fill the wood "straws". Then add more glue and glue up. It is probably a good idea to do this with MDF as well, as it can soak up glue.
Do not use dowels! They require ultimate precision - a fraction out of line, and you will not get the ends together.
Biscuits are not really needed for strength, although they can do so, but aid in positioning the parts.
Regards from Perth
Derek
rogxwhit
Established Member
No! An un-reinforced mitre will not properly accommodate humidity-change related wood movement.
No! Although they are at 45deg, they are equivalent to an end-grain joint. Your comment about 'sizing' in effect admits this.
rogxwhit
Established Member
To the OP - not having seen your designs I can't comment fully, but I assume that your mitres are structural to some degree - without knowing what loads they'll have to resist.
A biscuit is more of a locator than a profound structural joint. It increases glue area slightly but has limited resistance to tensile and racking strains. Are you sure that you shouldn't be looking at a more serious mechanical joint like a dovetail?
A biscuit is more of a locator than a profound structural joint. It increases glue area slightly but has limited resistance to tensile and racking strains. Are you sure that you shouldn't be looking at a more serious mechanical joint like a dovetail?
