best thing for large sheets of melamine

[Marcjwebb]

I'm not on about new purely second hand. And on fleabay there are various for around the 800 mark.

Is the track saw that much better tho ?

 

[chippy1970]

The cordless version of the Festool track saw fits a different profile rail; and really was designed for cross-cutting narrower boards.

Think you've got a bit confused there. The tsc55 cordless fits the standard rails just like the ts55. Maybe you're thinking of the new hk55 which comes with a special short rail that's spring loaded. Even the hk55 fits the standard rails though.

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[chippy1970]

that is disappointing to know that the cordless rails are different- I thought that the whole point of the system was that it is all compatible. i would prefer the cordless, simply for the ease of working outside, or in the carpark of the sheet material merchant!

It is compatible

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[memzey]

I don't have a track saw but I do have a vintage Wadkin dimension saw which I purchased and restored for under your stated budget. I can't offer you a true comparison but I personally don't understand how one can get the same levels of accuracy, repeatability and capacity with the hand held device as you can with the stationary lump of iron - even with a dog festooned MFT. I do, on the other hand, totally understand how convenience, space and the practicality of being able to bring the tool to the stock as opposed to the other way around will represent deal winning benefits for some.

On to your original point again - I suspect a properly set up, good quality saw bench with a ZCI and the appropriate blade will more than likely do all that you ask for. You will however need considerable run in and run out space and a substantial out feed table to cut sheets of that size.

 

[Benchwayze]

that is disappointing to know that the cordless rails are different- I thought that the whole point of the system was that it is all compatible. i would prefer the cordless, simply for the ease of working outside, or in the carpark of the sheet material merchant!

I was disappointed too, but as I don't go out to work any more, I didn't feel motivated to take it up with Festool. If enough site carpenters take it up with them thety might see the error of their ways? I wouldn't hold my breath though!

Thanks Chippy. I think I was referring to the other saw! I know there is a cordless festool saw, that runs on a different profile of track! Oh well. I blame my age! :lol: Thanks !

 

[nathandavies]

If you are going to be cutting these sheets day in, day out then a sliding table saw like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-cp...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

is going to be your friend.

This is the model that I have, so i'm going to be biased. I picked mine up for £1000. I've seen them go for £800 but not often.

I started out with a track saw many many years ago, and they definitely have their place. I would say from a business point of view, that it isn't the initial purchase cost that should worry you, but the real estate cost of having a slider like this. It needs something like 7m x 4.5m, which is bigger than some peoples workshops.

It is definitely quicker than a track saw, and more repeatable.

You may get decent blades with it, but if not budget in £150 for a main and scoring if you want good quality. Depending on how often you see the saw doctor you will want x number of sets.

This particular model is a lot heavier to work with than other makes and models, but it is typical Wadkin tank like build. Set it up and just saw and saw and saw and saw......

I've worked on brand new lower end of the market sliders which look like they are going to tip over when you put your 2070 x 2800 sheet on them.

I'd never be without my slider, once you've got it you will wonder how you managed without.

Nathan

 

[Benchwayze]

FWIW TS55 with a 1400 track is about £360. Add £90 for a 1900 rail, £40-ish for the laminate blade. Sheet of 1" Celotex to cut against, job done.

The depth setting is really precise (the Festool is the same) - there's a mechanical advantage of about 2:1 on the scale so 1mm depth is about 2mm on the scale - easy to set very accurately if you need to.

I must confess: a long, long while back, (in the 60s) I broke down a lot of 18mm blockboard (8x4 sheets) on the deck, in my backyard, (which was just big enough to lay the sheets on 2 x 2s.) without causing damage. I had nothing but a 10 inch tenon saw and at the time it seemed a sensible way to do it. :lol: :lol: :lol: With apologies for snitching your words Eric!

Now I'd say I really had something to puppy about, but back then they were only just starting to produce saw attachments for a Black and Decker drill! So we got on with it I guess.

Thanks Eric.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

It all depends on what you mean by 'chip free'. No saw will give you absolutely chip free, the better ones will give you 'almost chip free'. The only way to get chip free is with a router cutter, which is why serious edge banders have 'pre-milling' which in effect is a router cutter trimming off the'almost chip free' finish left by the beam saw.

Alternatively, cut the panels out with a CNC router.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I'm not on about new purely second hand. And on fleabay there are various for around the 800 mark.
Is the track saw that much better tho ?

No. It's different, and capable of great accuracy, limited by how the cut is set up by the user.

These MFT (tables) aren't witchcraft. They're just a relatively stable surface with dog holes in a precise and useful pattern of rows. You index your track and stock against them, so cuts do become repeatable. For example three dogs in a large, squared triangle give you a guaranteed right-angle cut, to the accuracy of the grid pattern.

It's only one way of using a track saw though, and many people have made their own MFTs, too.

. . .

If you want a more focused discussion, you need to define what you mean by accuracy. Do you mean a clean, long, straight line, or lots of repetitive cuts each time with one offcut being square and to exactly the same length?

If I had to do the latter with sheet goods, inexpensively, in a small-batch (say <100 units) production environment, I would probably be making a jig and using a track saw.

That would let me make one or more, exact, cuts repetitively, quickly and accurately. Setup would be pretty quick - drop the board on, drop the track on, drop the saw on the track, make the cut. That's slower than a big panel saw, but undoubtedly a lot cheaper and quicker. It also means, if you have the storage space, that you can park the jig and instantly reset to the exact dimensions at a later date.

There are a lot of other advantages: DX is cheap and easy to do, the arrangement takes up no space when it's not in use, it is LOADS cheaper, sharpening and spares are cheaper too, and almost no routine maintenance, and so on.

You also won't get errors accumulating. Say there's a loose bolt on your big, expensive Felder. Over time it goes out of alignment by, say 1/2 degree of squareness (or whatever). Your production panels will creep, and one made at the end of the batch will be distinctly off compared to one from the start. You get the engineer in, who fixes & aligns the saw, BUT YOU STILL HAVE A PROBLEM. You can probably use panels that are true, and ones that aren't, but not together.

Ouch. Working around that is a matter of production engineering - designing-in tolerances so that this isn't an issue, but the fact remains that relying on scales rather than jigs will always lead to errors if the settings are changed between production runs. You pay a LOT for change-it-put-it-back repeatable accuracy. Jigs are hugely cheaper.

Just some thoughts...

E.

 

[nathandavies]

It all depends on what you mean by 'chip free'. No saw will give you absolutely chip free, the better ones will give you 'almost chip free'. The only way to get chip free is with a router cutter, which is why serious edge banders have 'pre-milling' which in effect is a router cutter trimming off the'almost chip free' finish left by the beam saw.

Alternatively, cut the panels out with a CNC router.

I started writing something along these lines, but gave up.

With a scribe blade, to get very few chips you want to give it a little bit of room to work when it comes to its width. However this means you will get a step of say 0.05mm to 0.1mm to where the main blade does the work. This doesn't sound or look like much until you edge it, when sometimes it glares at you.

Nathan

 

[Eric The Viking]

A PS (famous for 'em!):

I have a friend, recently retired from running a production workshop. They used a lot of Festool kit (including a 5m rail!) but also had a big panel saw (not Felder, but equiv. quality). It could easily handle full sheets (up to about 3m on the sliding table.

One week-end when it was quiet we were walking around the shop, and arrived at the panel saw. They weren't getting good results from it - what did I think? I noticed the slitter blade obviously hadn't been used for a while and two minutes with a straight edge showed it was out of true to the main blade. Discussions with the staff showed they'd had problems using it and just stopped. ISTR it turned out that one of the bearings had gone (or a pillow block had moved, or similar). Anyway, it didn't move as it should. It should've been fixed when first noticed.

They got the man in. Two days and a four figure bill later, it still wasn't right, and a big fuss ensued.

It was eventually done. Now they have to book a maintenance visit every few months, to keep it fettled.

They don't do big production runs usually, most stuff is unique, so the saw is set and reset a lot and has to be dial-in accurate.

Moral? There's a price for that, and if you don't budget for regular maintenance, you may end up with wasted investment, as otherwise you can't keep the posh kit accurate.

E.

I'm not a woodworking engineer, by the way, just observant and with an over-supply of curiosity.

 

[Marcjwebb]

ok ill narrow it down a little, i will need to be doing a lot of the same cuts over and over, like 3x2 ft 4x2 3x18" and 4x18" stuff like that,

i mainly need it to be strait, clean and repeatable, is there anywhere in essex i can see a festool or makita or dewalt demo?

 

[paulm]

It's the wrong side of town for you really, but the D&M tool show is on at Kempton Park 9/10/11 Oct and you would be able to see all those manufacturers there and close up demo's, sometimes some show offers too.

Cheers, Paul

 

[Marcjwebb]

oooh very kool, might have to go lol

 

[Lord Kitchener]

ok ill narrow it down a little, i will need to be doing a lot of the same cuts over and over, like 3x2 ft 4x2 3x18" and 4x18" stuff like that,

i mainly need it to be strait, clean and repeatable, is there anywhere in essex i can see a festool or makita or dewalt demo?

Might be an idea to start thinking and working in metric, will make life easier

 

[Marcjwebb]

i usually do but this purpose is prob the only thing where i work in imperial

 

[marcros]

ok ill narrow it down a little, i will need to be doing a lot of the same cuts over and over, like 3x2 ft 4x2 3x18" and 4x18" stuff like that,

i mainly need it to be strait, clean and repeatable, is there anywhere in essex i can see a festool or makita or dewalt demo?

Might be an idea to start thinking and working in metric, will make life easier

Festool will come to your workshop and demo it for you. They also give you a £50 voucher to put towards it from a local dealer.

 

[RobinBHM]

As a matter of interest how clean can a track saw cut a melamine faced board? It doesn't take much for the thin melamine to chip, its very brittle.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

As a matter of interest how clean can a track saw cut a melamine faced board? It doesn't take much for the thin melamine to chip, it's very brittle.

NFG for edgebanding straight from the saw.

Best would be to run a track-guided router along the cut afterwards but the track will need to be moved between cuts.

 

[Marcjwebb]

Really. ? One now that's service