bendy cap irons

[D_W]

I wouldn't be too concerned over Acorn. They weren't the best made. I still have the plane but the blade surprised me on how good it was, which is why I swapped it to the Stanley 5.5. Maybe it was one of those that surpassed their usual output. Maybe they sourced their blades from a specialist. I think it's from the 30's.

Probably just good quality oil hardened steel, as most of the early 1900s stanley non-laminated irons seem to be. I'd assume that the laminated stanley irons were water hardening, but not sure. They all wear about the same rate.

 

[D_W]

Video of cleaning up the second plane (long video filled with my opinions):
*preparing the iron and cap
*lapping the sole and the sides (the sides only because they had rust on them, they could've been left alone)

That's pretty much all of it, but it did take about a half hour. The modern stanley cap needed some cleanup, but I didn't alter the geometry (it's already close to perfect for use, it was just roughly milled).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InbpoRc ... e=youtu.be

Right around 39 minutes in the video after getting done with cleaning up the plane, there is an indication of the reflective surface quality.

I hate to say it, but of the dozen stanley 4s I've had over the years, this modern plane has at least as good of a feel as any.

Cheshire - note at the very end, I took a thicker shaving than I really should have in the ash, just so I couldn't be accused of removing tearout by taking a thin shaving. Even at that, it is impossible to get this plane to chatter because it's set up properly. It'll just near bring me to a halt (any deeper and it would) struggling to push the cut back against the grain in ash.

I should in the near future finish kitchen cabinets that I have 3/4ths done and then went into procrastination on. I'll get a better idea of iron life, this iron is definitely softer than the old ones, but in combination with the cap use, it probably won't be an issue.

It sharpens like a dream on the washita (since oilstones are about the same hardness as very hard steel, if the steel is a click off of that, they cut it plenty quickly) - probably will never take than some fraction of a minute to sharpen.

In my opinion, a lot of people could stand to learn to use a single washita to sharpen. There's nothing lacking after seeing the reflectivity from the cherry (that you'll find with a guide and a bunch of waterstones), I don't know what it would be, and I never have to fart around flattening the washita - or really anything other than wiping it off quickly with a paper towel once in a while. No lack of camber, either - certainly no witness lines on the cherry board (though you can see a dry crack at one end of it, that's not related).

 

[custard]

Difficult to argue with that video. The fine set cap iron does what you claim and the evidence is right there.

Thanks for posting.

 

[D_W]

Difficult to argue with that video. The fine set cap iron does what you claim and the evidence is right there.

Thanks for posting.

It's hard to know what stanley knew about the plane at that point in time, but I just used it some more in actual work...it's really a surprisingly nice working plane. One that most forumites would curse because of the soft iron and coarse looking frog. With the cap set, it is rock solid and I'm sure when used properly, I can find a way for the iron to wear me out physically before it needs to be resharpened. (still like vintage stanley irons better, though - but soft ones like this would be spectacular for roughing work).

 

[custard]

I've got a few alternative options for handling tear out on flat boards, but not too many for curved work. A card scraper or a high pitched HNT Gordon spoke shave are my usual solutions, but the shavings are so fine with these tools that it's a lot of work to remove tear out on curved components. Often I just go straight to a bobbin sander, but that carries a big risk that the fairness of the curve gets compromised, something that's difficult to spot until the finish gets applied.

So if the finely set cap iron works on a compass plane that would be a big and useful step forward. Inspired by DW's video I just tried a "proof of concept" on a Bailey plane before giving it a go with a compass plane.

Here's an I Sorby Bailey style plane with the original thin iron (maybe a bit thicker than the usual Stanley/Record irons but not by much). It's been well used but not by me, and it's never been sorted out. The iron needed grinding, honing, and the back flattening. The cap iron was a quite "gappy", but that was easily sorted out. No more than 15 or 20 minutes work got it to this stage,

I used an off-cut of highly figured Curly Cherry from a Shaker chimney cabinet that I'm currently making. It's been a problem timber, needing back bevel knives on the planer/thicknesser and multiple passes through the drum sander to keep tear out under control.

I set the cap iron a few tenths of a mill back from the edge and started with some very thick shavings, much thicker than I'd normally use, but absolutely no sign of any tear out,

Then moved on to finer shavings, tried planing the board both ways, still zero tear out,

I was fretting about blunting the edge by running the cap iron over the honed edge when setting it (I think David Charlesworth mentioned having a similar concern - I've got in the habit of treating a honed edge with extreme reverence, maybe it's not really warranted?). I actually did run the cap iron over the edge a couple of times, but in practise it didn't seem to cause any problems and the iron still cut well. I'm sure with a bit more practise at setting the cap iron extremely close this wouldn't happen so much, and in any event I'd be less anxious about it in the future.

What can I say, so far at least it works!

I'll put a bit more work into the plane and try again tomorrow on some other problem timbers. And if it still delivers good results then I'll move on to doing the same thing on curved components with a compass plane.

 

[D_W]

Perfectly done, Custard. All of the old "hard to use" planes will suddenly be easy. Permanently. I believe you'll find that if you can't plane it with those planes, you can't plane whatever you're doing with any plane.

You will get to the point that you don't overrun the edge very quickly, dozen sets of the cap iron, maybe. I think i've overrun an edge one time in the last two years, but the conclusion was the same as yours - no harm.

Rightly said, too, that the double iron is ideal for a compass plane - essential if you want to work quickly. It'll keep you from getting in trouble when you go against the grain at the bottom of a cut. It clears up how the old wooden compass planes are used when their mouths are usually pretty rough.

 

[nabs]

thanks for the video D_W - it is really good to see someone demystifying the process of setting up these old planes and should encourage newbies like me to have a go.

Custard, I saw a top tip from a video by Richard Maquire on setting the cap iron - he suggests to set it a bit back and then to use a screwdriver or similar to tap the screw that holds the cap-iron to the blade until it snugs up close to the edge

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I'm wondering how the (very sound) idea of setting the cap iron tight up to the cutting edge, to minimise tearout, sits with the idea of gently cambering the edge to minimise the risk of marking the workpiece with the two corners of the blade. I suppose that, with a cambered blade, the centre of the cut will be (slightly) more prone to tearout than the two regions either side. I guess the camber may be only a couple of thou, compared with the several tens of thou between cutting edge and cap iron.

I round off the corners of the cutting iron, as well as very gently cambering the cutting edge, in the hope of needing less of a camber because of the rounded corners - and thus being able to set my cap iron a few gnat's body-parts nearer the cutting edge. Thinking more about about it, there's no reason why one couldn't gently camber the cap iron too(!) I wonder if anyone does this.

Cheers, W2S

 

[Trafalgar]

Yes, shape the cap iron to match.

 

[D_W]

Yes, shape the cap iron to match.

Absolutely not. The cap iron is relieved so that the front edge touches the iron. Cutting some parts on a curve will create a gap if the curve is more than the most gradual curve. There's no functional need to cut the cap iron anything but straight because it never protrudes through the bottom of the plane, which means that at the edges where it's closer to the edge of the iron, the chip thickness will be thinner there than the middle, anyway.

There is never a good reason to profile the cap iron anything but straight.

 

[D_W]

I'm wondering how the (very sound) idea of setting the cap iron tight up to the cutting edge, to minimise tearout, sits with the idea of gently cambering the edge to minimise the risk of marking the workpiece with the two corners of the blade. I suppose that, with a cambered blade, the centre of the cut will be (slightly) more prone to tearout than the two regions either side. I guess the camber may be only a couple of thou, compared with the several tens of thou between cutting edge and cap iron.

I round off the corners of the cutting iron, as well as very gently cambering the cutting edge, in the hope of needing less of a camber because of the rounded corners - and thus being able to set my cap iron a few gnat's body-parts nearer the cutting edge. Thinking more about about it, there's no reason why one couldn't gently camber the cap iron too(!) I wonder if anyone does this.

Cheers, W2S

Hi Woody - as I mentioned to charlie, straight across for the cap iron. Anywhere you've relieved the corners, the shaving will be thinner, anyway, and the cap iron set will still be appropriate and not interfering. Regardless of whether the curve is gradual or clipped off abruptly at the corners, the straight cap is the best setup both for ease and in terms of actually functioning.

I think it's a mental puzzle at first to wonder how it will not be too close in some areas, but in reality, you are setting the cap for the depth of cut at the middle of your iron, and thus the cap iron needs to still be up from the sole a fair amount or the plane will stop you in your tracks. Anywhere that the cap seems to close to the edge won't be in the cut, anyway, and couldn't be even if you rounded the cap iron.

One of the lovely things about the cap iron is pretty much the easiest solution in every case is the best one, and there is no fiddly ongoing tuning to do, and no restriction on changing the camber of your iron if you prefer.

 

[Trafalgar]

Cap irons are soft. They shape easily. The camber in a smoother should be extremely gradual. Just rubbing off the corners of the cutter is certainly also viable, leaving it essentially straight across. If you've ever seen somebody using a smoothing plane and producing a 3/8" wide or less shaving then the cutter has too much nose on it and/or they did a poor job of prepping the board to be smoothed.

Lots of video around of this very thing purporting to show how it's done but doing anything but. If you have to take a potato chip thickness shaving to get one the full width of the cutter then there is too much camber. Full stop.

In prepping lumber completely by hand, removing twist, cup, etc. you will often be left with very little remaining thickness in which to take comparatively greedy shavings in the final cleanup. If you're too cambered then your shavings will be much too narrow and the component will look like hell under a finish. Tearout will be the least of your worries.

All this of course assumes you are dimensioning lumber to a project cut list, or to fit, and not just knocking around in the garage.

Beware the SuperPlaners who eschew scrapers and sandpaper. Most cannot prep a board to the necessary standard needed to look good under a film finish, should that be the spec. Shaker and American Country with linseed oil -- not a problem.

 

[D_W]

I have no clue who you're talking to about dimensioning and cambering. Did you see any of what you're talking about in my planes? You think I had to resort to sanding those or spent an inordinate amount of time smoothing planing them? You're wasting everyones' time with all of the hypotheticals about cambering. You don't do it on a cap iron, it's suboptimal, unnecessary, and potentially problematic. Period. The rest of your trolling talk is no more than that.

 

[Carl P]

On the curved cap iron, I had a couple of spar planes go through my hands a few years ago - they both had a semi-circle shaped cutting edge and a matching cap iron. Unfortunately as I didn't need them I released them into the wild waters of ebay but, although at the time I didn't know about the cap iron effect, I remember being particularly impressed by the ammount of care that had been taken to get an exact fit between cap iron and cutting edge.

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Trafalgar]

Mr. Charlesworth has mentioned shaping his cap irons if it's any consolation to the membership.

 

[custard]

It's this issue of the camber that I think for me will be a limiting factor with the close set cap iron technique. In terms of dealing with tear out a close set cap iron is an absolute winner, I've now seen that with my own eyes and I'm convinced. But everyone uses bench planes for different tasks in different ways, and in my workshop at least there are four factors which will tend to restrict the close set cap iron approach.

First is cambering. The number one use for a bench plane in my workshop is probably edge jointing boards to make up wider panels. I believe a hand planed edge to be superior (in terms of invisible glue lines) to a machined edge, so every edge jointed board in my workshop is finished with a bench plane, and to achieve that tight but slightly sprung fit I'm most comfortable using a cambered iron. The thinner the board the more aggressive the camber needs to be for edge jointing, and there comes a point with cambering where a closely set cap iron just doesn't feel right.

The second major limitation is choice of finishes. For an oiled finished I get finishing straight from a plane. But a thin film finish, such as say varnish, is different in that it will almost certainly need subsequent work with an abrasive, and the minute scalloping that hand plane finishing leaves will risk the abrasive cutting through a raised, scalloped edge. So I work on the basis that for thin film finishes the workpiece is sanded smooth before applying the finish. This doesn't negate the benefit of a closely set cap iron, because sanding out serious tear out is a lengthy job, but for more benign timbers in my workshop at least it reduces its relevance.

Thirdly is veneer work. Even with the relatively thick saw cut veneers that I use I'd be nervous about planing a veneered surface, maybe with more experience of using a finely set cap iron I'd get more confident, but I'm not prepared to put hundreds of hours of labour at risk to gain that confidence, so I'll probably stick with very fine scraping and sanding on veneered work.

Fourthly is shooting. Components that are too small to be safely machined, or need adjusting by tiny increments, in my workshop generally get shot. And this is long grain as well as end grain shooting. I'm not sure a closely set cap iron would have benefits in this application, it may or it may not, I haven't built up enough experience to make up my mind.

Having said all this I'm convinced about the advantages of a finely set cap iron. It banishes tear out and permits a heavy shaving to quickly clean up tear out left by machines. And if I can get it to work on curves with a compass plane I'll be even more delighted and grateful to DW for bringing this valuable technique to my attention.

 

[Trafalgar]

Don't mess this up by pointing out real world scenarios. You've spoiled all the fun.

 

[custard]

Don't mess this up by pointing out real world scenarios. You've spoiled all the fun.

Otherwise, damning with faint praise comes to mind. =D>

No faint praise from me. The ability to handle a highly figured piece of timber confident about tear out is a massive step forward. Furthermore, what's "real world" in my workshop may be purely hypothetical in another workshop.

 

[Corneel]

I don't see a problem there Custard. David allready explained how a straigh capiron works perfectly allright with a cambered iron. Well until you get into jack plane territory of course. The better solution to avoid tearout in that scenario is planing across the grain. In your second and third example, the capiron may or may not be an advantage, but that is the beauty of the thing, it is adjustable. Put it closer to the edge when you need it, set it further away when the timber doesn't present a problem and enjoy the reduction in resistance. And veneer, I think that was the ultimate drop in the bucket making the double iron plane so populair. With thick sawn veneers it was much quicker to be able to plane it smooth rather then to scrape off all those sawmarks. That doesn't invalidate the scaper for final cleaning of course, especially with todays ultrathin cut veneers. BTW, did you know that the capiron effect plays a major role in the veneer cutting industry?

 

[D_W]

Don't mess this up by pointing out real world scenarios. You've spoiled all the fun.

Otherwise, damning with faint praise comes to mind. =D>

No faint praise from me. The ability to handle a highly figured piece of timber confident about tear out is a massive step forward. Furthermore, what's "real world" in my workshop may be purely hypothetical in another workshop.

Bravo, Custard, for ignoring all of the discussions about where it may not work or what the patent may or may not have said. You have quickly nailed all of the advantages, but the biggest being the pre-smoothing work where you can either remove tearout or work to a line at a high rate with no risk even if you've got a glue seam with opposing grain directions.

That is the biggest time gain, and I'm convinced that is exactly the part of the process that made double iron planes eliminate single iron planes so quickly.

As far as the thing where you're not comfortable with it, I'm sure I wouldn't be, either. No need to use it everywhere, but where it works it really works well, and you'll probably find yourself getting more comfortable with it. You'll also begin to notice that you can keep the iron in the cut longer and for more feet of wood before resharpening when the cap is set properly.

(your intuition is correct that it doesn't offer material benefit on end grain, but you don't really need it there. It may be of some benefit on shooting long grain, but if you don't have tearout issues there, there's not much to solve).