Sharpening: 1000 vs 16000 grit.

[Rhossydd]

Jacob's video efforts eagerly awaited.........

A video from Jacob ? a flick book is more likely.

 

[G S Haydon]

I think this vid from FWW is not too bad at all on grinding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB-Pa73Snp4

 

[Peter Sefton]

Has any one got much experience of using the Shapton stones? If so how have you got on with them?

One of my past students has some after seeing Rob using them, we have access to them and I have thought about putting them on the website but would like to hear from long time users for their opinions.

Cheers Peter

These are the views of a beginner - I've only been at this woodworking lark 18 months now - so they should perhaps be treated with caution.

I have a set of Shapton stones plus holder as offered by Dictum. The stones are 1,000, 3000 and 8,000. I also bought a 500 stone for rough work but once the edges were sorted out it slipped into redundancy. I had previously had a Cerax 1,000/6,000 combination stone. I'm much happier with the Shaptons because while the Cerax (which worked well) required a 10 minute soak before use, I only have to spray the Shaptons with water and the soak time is the time needed to set up my Veritas Mk II guide.

The results seem, to my untutored eye, to be tip top and consistent. A2 steel is dealt with very quickly indeed and one of the upshots of this is that as my confidence in the system and my ability to use it have grown, I am now sharpening much more often. It really is just a quick job at the end of a session.

I'm not sure that the 8,000 stone is absolutely necessary as the 3,000 seems to produce a pretty sharp edge and from what I've read on here the 8,000 "effect" will be worn off after only a few strokes of the plane. On the other hand as so little time is needed to put that edge on, why not?

I realise I might get my head ripped off for having this kit (particularly the guide) but in my defence I offer the following: I know no-one who has the skills to teach me and as such have to learn from books, DVDs (thank you David Charlesworth and Christopher Schwarz) and the internet. I'm absolutely sure that it is a lot more craftsmanlike (and cheaper!) to sharpen freehand but without a tutor one needs all the help one can get. Therefore I can honestly recommend these stones and perhaps some sort of guide system to any other beginner. (For what it's worth I find that spokeshave blades are a doddle to sharpen by hand but I wouldn't dare to try to put a secondary bevel on them by hand.)

Thanks for the input and your experience of using the Shaptons, I do like the idea of only a quick spray of water to get them going.

The Veritas MK2 is a great bit of kit and we find that new woodworkers do produce excellent and repeatable edges every time when using it. If they can master the technique of free hand honing all the better but repeating 30 degrees is one thing, repeating 17 degrees back bevels and high angles is a lot trickier. The Veritas will cope with most things you throw at it, but not all.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

Jacob's video efforts eagerly awaited.........

A video from Jacob ? a flick book is more likely.

I've got nothing to sell and anyway the trad way is dead simple. You can't make money by telling people they don't need x, y, z.
Sellers vid is good - just transpose that to an oil stone.
It really is an odd phenomenon the way sharpening has been taken over and made difficult/expensive by the new boys. Has the same thing gone on in many other areas? NB it's not "progress", if anything it's the opposite.

 

[blackrodd]

I think this vid from FWW is not too bad at all on grinding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB-Pa73Snp4

As you say, not too bad, but he had the shakes somewhat and another one who doesn't say anything on the correct wheel grit for the job.
Most of the new grinders seem to arrive with an 80 grit wheel, which is really too fine and will tend to burn the steel quite easily. 40 grit is far too course but a 60 grit will remove the steel quite quickly without too much burning or "blueing" and he had the water as a coolant.
As for "crowning" the cutting edge, I would think that the idea is to allow for a smaller grit area to come into contact with the chisel, thereby helping to keep the chisel steel cooler, I would think it difficult not to follow the wheel's shape and ending up with a roundy ended chisel.
I was always taught to keep the stone the shape you wish to end up with and our saw shop had more than a dozen carborundum wheels different sizes and shapes for the cutters alone.
I still sharpen free hand, without the rest guard, It's very much like riding a bike or driving a car, the more you do, the easier it gets as you're confidence grows.
Regards Rodders

 

[bugbear]

Sellers vid is good - just transpose that to an oil stone.

Sequence of 3 diamond grits, high level of polishing via stopping, proper emphasis on back flattening, all good stuff.

BugBear

 

[David C]

Yes, I enjoyed reading his ode to the hollow oilstone, but what does he choose to use?

David

 

[Corneel]

Now I understand why he thinks his chisel and plane iron backs remain polished indefinitely. He polishes them every time on a strop with polishing compund! So, there is no magic after all.

 

[Trafalgar]

Yes, one works the backs of chisels and plane irons on the strop to remove rag and to polish.

A strop isn't really necessary with very fine media but no media in the form of a stone is as fine as the finest powder one can apply to a strop.

 

[Trafalgar]

I think this vid from FWW is not too bad at all on grinding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB-Pa73Snp4

It is pretty good. I must admit that I happily use 'Jacob's method' almost exclusively but I do often finish on a hard strop with AlOx powder. In context, it amounts to my finest stone I guess.

 

[bugbear]

...t I do often finish on a hard strop with AlOx powder. In context, it amounts to my finest stone I guess.

The main difference between a strop and a fine stone is that a traditional strop has quite a lot of give in it, so the
edge is slightly rounded and made steeper (on a near microscropic scale) as the abrasion proceeds. This flex
is quite useful when sharpening gouges - the abrasive, to some extent, confirms to the curve.

In the modern era, some people use hardwood strops, or even diamond dust in cast iron or copper - these strops (or laps)
are very nearly identical in behaviour to stones.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Yep, I use the powder on hard rubber. If I make a bit of a bumbling pass on the hard rubber it won't really ruin the work that came before.

 

[buffalobill]

I wouldn't watch it too closely - Cosman is into "difficult" sharpening in a big way. Better off with Sellers. Keep it simple.

Both Seller and Cosman do freehandsharpening, Sellers use 3 diamondstones and a strop vs Cosmans 2 stones i really dont see Sellers metod any easier/simpler

 

[David C]

It must be that fiendish 6 inch ruler which upsets Jacob.

Much too "difficult".........

 

[Jacob]

Not difficult just pointless. One extra bit of fiddling about which nobody needs.

 

[David C]

Now that I think about it there are indeed some difficulties.

There are several excellent reasons for using the ruler, and they need a little effort to be understood properly.

It then becomes clear that the ruler is far from pointless.

The method was specifically adopted for Japanese waterstones. Perhaps this is why the oilstone user is so sceptical?

 

[Trafalgar]

I've actually forgotten what the ruler trick is supposed to accomplish. It seems superfluous on a tool that has a flat and polished back.

What is it actually for?

After 30+ years in the profession don't all your chisels and plane irons have flat and polished backs by now? If not, why not?

If the new stuff you're buying for your school is severely out of kilter please tell us what brands you are buying so we can avoid them.

I've never spent more than fifteen to twenty minutes flattening and polishing up the most pedestrian of brands - chisels, irons, etc.

 

[David C]

As you have forgotten, I wonder why you expend energy being rude about it?

If you use oilstones, I would not bother to take the trouble to understand the issues.

 

[Graham Orm]

It's Christmas guys........anyone got a football?

 

[iNewbie]

/sound of a ball deflating from an oil-stoned sharpened chisel...